Monome 40h Kits

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:55 pm

http://forum.monome.org/topic/899#new

tehn wrote:thanks for the overwhelming response. here's where we're at:

we're be making two kits:

1. logic. includes all components and pre-programmed atmel chip.
2. keypad. includes 8x8 pcb, 4 4x4 keypads, diodes.

everything you need to get on your own are a matter of customization:
- leds
- custom top plate (i'd be curious to see some non-aluminum versions)
- bottom enclosure

more info very soon. we should be ready to take orders hopefully by the
end of next week. we'll be making 100 kits initially, with the
possibility of 100 more.

apologies to everyone who's waiting around for our "surplus" stock,
which we've come to find out is non-existent after we keep enough parts
for potential repairs.

waiting for one more quote before posting the prices. should have photos
on tuesday.

They redesigned it with BIG through hole parts, very user friendly for the hobbyist. I could solder the new kit with my toes, you can too. My guess on the parts is ~$400, these guys keep their profit margins pretty humble.

I got parts for a second one from sparkfun.com, once I play with a 40h and learn what the software on the computer end works I'll come up with a COLOR version that's hopefully backwards compatible with the current 40h but not bus powered. No promises on when I'll get on it but it seems like a pretty reasonable project these things are fairly simple devices.

The wait has been killing me!!

Bassic Dave · Post by **Bassic Dave** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:43 pm

This sound like it could be friggin awesome... so will it be totally customizable?
D.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:10 pm

The way I understand it, the kit is just the parts to put one together:

64 buttons

64 through hole LEDs, probably green.

the board to put the LEDs and buttons onto (shown on the left)

The logic board redesigned for use with bigger versions of the old parts:

(you just solder into the holes along the edges, this is a breakout board from www.sparkfun.com used so users don't have to solder to these fine pitch parts (that's the USB interface chip and USB port) parts. That board will mount onto the newly redesigned logic board.

And they chose big versions of the microcontroller and the other chips which are really common parts. Those go on the logic board.

Customisable is subjective, I'm an electrical engineer I'm used to programming microcontrollers, soldering and making circuits. But this is completely a hobbyist project, no experience is necessary, just some interest and motivation. It's a really simple interface design, open to be used for just about anything. This would be a great first time project for anyone who's ever wanted to get into making their own controller.

My plan is to change out the monochrome LEDs for these 3 color LEDs:

which are a red, a green and a blue LED in one package, by PWMing each color you can get a lot of different colors. I plan on doing that by adding in two more of the Maxim 7221 LED drivers for a total of 3 and using unused pins on the microcontroller to send commands to all 3 LED drivers. There are also unused bits in the monome's software protocol that I can use, I only need 2 spare bits. MaxMSP works great to send data to and from the 40h, it's just a two byte protocol, this is all laid out on their site.

First I want a 40h from monome to play with, then I'll hack my own together, I already have the parts (not from monome) and I have to make my own logic board and button/LED board, but that's sussed out. If/When I get it going I plan on giving the plans to monome for them to do with as they wish, they deserve it.

Bassic Dave · Post by **Bassic Dave** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:13 pm

Muy interesante...
This device looks really nice, but im having trouble thinking of ways to use it besides triggering clips. That would be great by itself especially in a live setting, and double that for the 100h, but ive seen videos of people doing other things with this, like cutting up samples. Also do you know it it is page-able, like can you have multiple pages of buttons? And how hard do you think it would be to take the logic chips and buttons and add faders and rotaries?

D.

Bassic Dave · Post by **Bassic Dave** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:20 pm

Wow 3 lights per pad? How do you think this would be used? I can imagine that would look incredible in a dark club, it adds a great performance element to the static nature of live electronic music.

D.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:58 pm

Bassic Dave wrote:Muy interesante...
This device looks really nice, but im having trouble thinking of ways to use it besides triggering clips. That would be great by itself especially in a live setting, and double that for the 100h, but ive seen videos of people doing other things with this, like cutting up samples. Also do you know it it is page-able, like can you have multiple pages of buttons? And how hard do you think it would be to take the logic chips and buttons and add faders and rotaries?

D.

There is no standard application to use it. The software itself is ALL open source, users have come up with all kinds of step sequencers, slicers, Live interfaces, games, video playback/control and pretty blinky toys. Most of them look like they were developed in MAX/MSP, if you've ever learned a programming language, you can do MAX/MSP, it's the same thing except you connect lines between boxes (objects) that represent functions rather than writing code (or you can put C/java code into those objects.) People are also using Reaktor, Pd and Bidule to make 40h apps. MAX MSP has a FREE runtime environment users can use, developers need the real version.

This link is a great explanation
Video controller <video at top> At the middle of the video he openly lays out how it all works with Ableton Live and his video app (VDMX).
http://vjkungfu.tv/archive/av-sequencin ... mx-monome/

A huge list of apps users have made, all open source.

http://wiki.monome.org/view/40hApps

Slicer
http://wiki.monome.org/view/AppMaxMspMlr

Step sequencer
http://wiki.monome.org/view/AppMaxMsp64step

Arpeggiator
http://wiki.monome.org/view/AppPdPhoenix

A video of ahlstrominfo using it with Live
http://youtube.com/watch?v=awMgevUjx8g

Another good demo video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14HG0QOp-0g

This app takes in Live video or a movie and plays it on the 40h
http://wiki.monome.org/view/AppMaxMsp1BitVideo
There's a video of this somewhere, trippy.

The interface is really simple, you just send two bytes to the 40h to turn on an LED and read two bytes to hear a button press.
http://wiki.monome.org/view/SerialProtocol

Read the links here, lots of info scattered throughout.
http://wiki.monome.org/view/WeShareInformation-2

Hacking the 40h
Schematic
http://wiki.monome.org/Attachment/40h_logic_schem.png
Notice at the top there's a thing called JA. That's 4 pins that tie straight into the microcontroller. Those pins can be inputs or outputs (1s and 0s) or A/D inputs. Tie knobs, joysticks, sliders, buttons, whatever to those. In the color version I hopt to use them to drive more LED drivers as I wrote above.

Here's how to put in a knob:
http://wiki.monome.org/view/40hOpticalEncoderTutorial
The user chose a big knob because it's more precise than a small one.

An accelerometer (tilt sensor)
http://wiki.monome.org/view/40hAccelerometerTutorial
Again, it's just someone finding a cool device and soldering it to 4 wires, then you need to add/change some code in the microcontroller (requires a $50 jtag programmer.)

Really, the sky is the limit, very simple interface with tons of capabilities.

Also, there's the Tenori-On
http://www.global.yamaha.com/design/tenori-on/
coming out but I doubt it will be open source or as cheap. I'm digging the open source community.

The 100h looks cool but I think I'd find it too big to remember all the functions, I also REALLY dig the 40h for being USB powered, and it's pretty small.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:05 am

Bassic Dave wrote:Wow 3 lights per pad? How do you think this would be used? I can imagine that would look incredible in a dark club, it adds a great performance element to the static nature of live electronic music.

D.

It should look fine in the daytime too. As an input you could make them change from blue to red as the user holds the pad down for some sense of velocity, as an output you could use it to show how loud a sound is, or just have the ability to have red for control buttons, blue for sounds, green for FX and white for not used, whatever you want. I'm just thinking pretty blinky (which is odd, I'm an audio guy and rarely care about blinky.)

I just see multicolor as a possibility, I hope to make it and release it open source to the community via monome and see what people create. I don't see it happening any sooner than a month or two, more like 6 I guess.

I'm this stoked on the damn thing but I've never even seen one in real life.

OK, back to cleaning the apartment, enough 40h videos for the afternoon. (doubt it.)

longjohns · Post by **longjohns** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:53 am

I'm interested in this kit. Seems like a much easier project than an MIDIbox64. A good way to get my feet wet

A little dismayed at $400 price as a kit...

Thanks for all the info you're pouring into these threads!

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:26 am

longjohns - yeah, it's pricey there's other toys you can buy at that price, I'm writing it off as an educational thing for myself, tweaking the hardware and a really cool way to practice MAX/MSP programming.

I found that video link, check this out, realtime 1 bit video from a camera onto the monome, bread and butter for Jitter (the video end of max/msp.
http://146.186.186.101/~bcrabtree/vid_40h.mov

As for the price, it just adds up, 64 buttons...

USB interface - $18, call it $25 for taxes and shipping.
FTDI chip and USB port on a board from sparkfun $18
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... ts_id=7841
You could probably get those 2 parts for $10-$15 and then there's the cost of the circuit board.

microcontroller $8.80, call it $10
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... cts_id=209

4x4 button pad from sparkfun - $10 x 4 = $40
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... ts_id=7835
these aren't the same as the monome buttons which are smaller and have a lower profile, the sparkfun buttons are more like cubes, I ordered a set, they feel nice.

monome on the left, sparkfun on the right.

The grid to hold the buttons down - $20 x 4 = $80
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... ts_id=7835

circuit board for the LEDs and buttons - $15 x 4 = $60
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... ts_id=8033
That has to be modified to fit diodes for a 'ghosting' problem (check the monome site or I can elaborate.)

LEDs are $0.35 - $1.50 each x 64 = $25 - $100

circuit boards can get expensive, I drew some up in my spare time, just a logic board is $50 for 6 or $10 for 20, something like that. The button board is even more expensive because it has to be a certain size. The logic board I draw was only 2" x 3". Call it $100 in boards.

Add $25 for ribbon cables, wires, solder, shipping, taxes, the other 2 ICs (74hc165/74hc164), overhead that's close to $450. Make them in bulk, get bulk prices, call it $375. Monome isn't making a lot of money selling these things plus I'm sure it's dominating their lives as well as driving their wives/girlfriends crazy. They also have packaging and shipping to consider in the price and splitting up the profits to their crew.

One went on ebay for $950, here's one that sold for $760!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0117603111

I have ZERO interest in making these for profit, open source is where it's at.

And that's also without a case and USB cable. And you need a $50 jtag programmer to squirt code into the microcontroller. monome will be sending people pre-programmed chips of course.

FWIW I also laid out how the circuit works here:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 827#481827

Verbal · Post by **Verbal** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:59 am

$400? I thought the kits were going to be cheaper.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:03 am

Verbal wrote:$400? I thought the kits were going to be cheaper.

In hindsight my guess was wrong because they're not offering the grid to hold the buttons down, the LEDs or the cabling.

I'll change my guess to $175, maybe $200. Sorry. Damn, that's totally different.

Verbal · Post by **Verbal** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:10 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Verbal wrote:$400? I thought the kits were going to be cheaper.
Just my guess, what amount did you hear?

Quote from the original post on the Monome forums..

i'm uncertain about how much the kit or board would cost. it'd be
inexpensive, around $50 i imagine.

Maybe there's something I'm missing though.

Link: http://forum.monome.org/topic/845#new

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:11 am

I edited my post, changed my guess. When I ran down that price I was thinking a complete kit, it's not but all the main parts are there, my bad for the bad info, I'm just excited to get into this.

The original $50 was just for the logic board with parts, no buttons, no board for the buttons, no LEDs, no case.

edit - $150 is my guess, who can guess closest?

we should know in a week

Verbal · Post by **Verbal** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:14 am

Either way, I'm excited. I'm hoping they're more like $100 for the big kit. Would be a fun project.

Plus I already have a 40h. It'd be nice to make a custom second one.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:14 am

http://forum.monome.org/topic/899#6006

you'll all be happy to know that today the logic kit has been finalized.
tested and working great, assembled very easily.

orders have been placed for tons of parts.

tomorrow we have several announcements and photos. some new plans not
yet mentioned.

i'll also try to get complete information posted about the kit which
will permit early project-planning.

we'll probably start taking orders later this week, though shipping
won't happen until boards arrive back from the manufacturer, which will
probably be between one and two weeks after that. that will at least
quell the fears that you won't get a kit, though we generally don't like
holding money.

prices tomorrow. we have to run the numbers one more time.