when you do a live show, do you find yourself putting a bric

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:01 am

Hi

Was up?

When you do a live show, do you find yourself putting a brick wall limiter on your master?

I know Live has lots of headroom, but I'm just curious about what you'll are doing.

Do you have a zero latency limiter you like to use, to prevent things from going over zero?

cheers

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:16 am

No Limiter on my master out.

I like dynamics.

Dynamics sound AWESOME, live.

Just think about it, if you're limiting hard, you have no-where to go.

i.e. if you're going no-where, you're actually static, not moving. this is a Bad Thing.

being able to have that extra bash when you want to, just to make a point, is worth the price of admission for not putting any limiting your master output.

if it's just a case of "but I'm not loud enough compared to the CDJ's etc" you should know where the gain stages are in the system, and be able to turn up somewhere else to compensate. Boy will you sound big now, because you've got somewhere to go.

Sadly, if the PA system is so heavily system-compressed because the 10 idiot DJs/live acts on before you all ran everything-into-the-red-all-the-time, and the venue got sick of replacing their trashed equipment, and thus put an evil system-limiter on the PA you are going to strike trouble.

If you can't speak politely to someone about turning the system up for an actual dynamic "live" act, you have to question if you're playing in the right place to start with.

Strike a blow for less limiting in live performance today!

/rant

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:21 am

Hi Pitch Black,

Thanks mate. I agree with you, and I love dynamics. I'm just curious, about what you do to protect yourself and the audience from an odd spike.

I mean, if your tweaking high res filters, or maybe a sound preset...

One never knows. You just leave it up to whatever compressor might be on the board to the PA?

I guess, you haven't had a problem with a loud spike, come from the computer? Maybe if you are doing some live sound design or something?

roach808 · Post by **roach808** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:24 am

Pitch Black wrote:No Limiter on my master out.

I like dynamics.

Dynamics sound AWESOME, live.

I couldn't have said it better, good sir.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:35 am

No limiter here either, doing a run through of your set beforehand should help you know if you're going to be clipping or not. Leave yourself some headroom just in case too.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:51 am

And another thing...

If you have your kick drums and bass separated from your mixes (ie in separate tracks inside Live) the very fact that you can EQ & volume either, or both, of these individually will enable you to get the most apparent volume out of the PA, while the system does the least work.

How? Every space has a resonant frequency. A set of nodes that will sound apparently louder with the same amount of energy going into them. A quick tweak of the EQ on your kick and bass separately, and you can tune into the frequencies that "work" in the room - that sound loudest because of the physics and dimensions of the venue. You get the most amount of volume for the least amount of PA power.

This gives you the most solid foundation to build your mix on. By the end of each track... and cumulatively, by the end of the night, you'll be absolutely HUMMING!

YMMV. This is just the result of my personal experience - we run 16-20 stems of audio for each song which is a lot. The more stems / tracks you have un-premixed together, the easier it is to make a mix sound huge, on the night, in that room - without resorting to compression.

At the very least have your kick and bass separate.

Do your mixes as best you can at home, leave them "open" inside Live, and take your laptop into a club on a Monday night when they're closed. Set up on the dancefloor and play loud. Now push your mix around so that it sounds mighty, and save the Live project. This is now the gigging version of your song. Adapt this gigging set over weeks and months as you move from room to room, you'll soon learn where the potential "peaky" problems are. As a general rule, less mids, and less Q on filters for live use.

PRE-MIXED, OVER-MASTERED STUFF SOUNDS BORING!!! ...over the course of a night.

(Yes, i am an old fart)

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:28 am

I've heard autechre mention in interviews that dynamics are encouraged live more than on albums. you can notice this in their 2005 glasgow art school live set which has a huge dynamic range, some tracks are even 2 or 3 db louder than others, and the drums really punch hard cause there is a lot of room for them.

turn it up loud in your car and you'll realize how awesome dynamics can be.

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:55 am

for the club stuff i do i put a peak limiter on the end to avoid clipping

most of the music i play has no dynamic range whatsoever so it probably affects me a little less than say Pitch Black.

aeon · Post by **aeon** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:13 am

i use a peak limiter.

it's practically invisible, because i run my set with plenty of headroom anyway; it's just to catch any feedback/spikes from my violin.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:53 am

I play guitar through Live, and run vocals through it as well. The more plug ins the higher the latency. Master Limiters are typically supremely guilty of adding latency.

nbinder · Post by **nbinder** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:21 am

@Pitch Black:

Great Idea, but for best results you should be able to leave the stage and readjust the sound during the gig.

Why? Because the room characteristics drastically change when it is crowded.

I have been requested to fine tune the PA of two clubs and the biggest part of the job was to attend some nights and re-adjust the sound.

As you said: The results of a venue-optimized sound are incredible.

Oh and to the OP: I don't think you'll need a brickwall limiter on the master when playing live. I don't know what you are doing but I never came so high in levels to get any problems playing live.

For the rest: I don't think he meant to use a brickwall limiter in order to squish the dynamics and get a higher average level, but simply to cut any spikes that might appear in accidents, right? Therefore he shouldn't be altering the overall dynamics in 99% of the time.

UKRuss · Post by **UKRuss** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:25 am

Machinesworking wrote:I play guitar through Live, and run vocals through it as well. The more plug ins the higher the latency. Master Limiters are typically supremely guilty of adding latency.

+1

Running something like Vintage Warmer on the master makes playing live instruments into Live a latency caused impossibility.

peeddrroo · Post by **peeddrroo** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:38 am

interesting thread.
i have a question: isn't it better to never go beyond 0dB and thus avoid clipping (either on your side or on the PA's side)?
you'll still keep all your dynamics.
plus if your material never reaches 0dB, then a limiter will be transparent. but then you'll ask me why put a limiter...

one thing i like about it (having a limiter, "just in case") is that during soundchecks it's much quicker: "sound engineer: - can you play something loud?
me: - i have a limiter at 0dB
s e: - ok, cool, play something at 0dB then"
and then nobody gets bad surprises

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:41 am

no limiter. just make sure you have enough headroom. the DJ mixer at some point acts like a soft clipper anyway, the PA most likely has a compressor somewhere, and at the very end of the chain the PA has most likely a protection circuit in the amp.
So, there is often more dynamics processing going on then what you would want anyway.

if there are known issues with some tracks, like a resonating filter sweep,
solve the problem locally there by applying a limiter or frequency selective compressor in that chain. if it sounds great on stage and does not hurt your ears, it will sound great on a record and vice versa.

dynamics are cool.

Robert

Robert Henke · Post by **Robert Henke** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:46 am

peeddrroo wrote:interesting thread.
i have a question: isn't it better to never go beyond 0dB and thus avoid clipping (either on your side or on the PA's side)?
you'll still keep all your dynamics.
plus if your material never reaches 0dB, then a limiter will be transparent. but then you'll ask me why put a limiter...

one thing i like about it (having a limiter, "just in case") is that during soundchecks it's much quicker: "sound engineer: - can you play something loud?
me: - i have a limiter at 0dB
s e: - ok, cool, play something at 0dB then"
and then nobody gets bad surprises

Yes and no. The average tech dude will set things up in a way that he aussumes the 0dB is your working level. This means you have no way to create great massive airy sound, because you need to run your whole set at that level, or it will not be loud enough. If you manage to convince the tech dude that your working level is -12dB and you make sure it sounds great and loud, and you make sure the 0 dB will still work, you have headroom to throw in that giant bass wave at some point... or get mad with the drums....

Robert