MIDI Latency vs. Audio Latency?

[morerecords]

I am wondering how to get around the latency issues required for audio processing, becuase they are messin up my MIDI sequencing. I have always had a soundcard seperate from my MIDI interface, until recently, when I got on which is combined. The playing is so sloppy due to latency issues, I don't remember ever having this problem before, but I was sequening in Logic, using hardware synths, not plug in synths...so, one of these factors is the culprit for my latest headaches....

Does anyone know if buying a MIDI inteface which has nothing to do with audio will yield a better midi response? I cant work like this...
I need my software synths to feel like instruments, you know?

thanks!
MR

[3phase]

get real istruments.. and if you buy the wright stuff you might even win money on selling them..
never will haopen with computer gear

[Tone Deft]

higher sample rate makes for lower latency but loads your CPU more.

get a better sound card and a faster CPU.

I bet it's not midi latency, the midi is coming in fine, it's that you're playing to what you're hearing which is delayed.

[Hermanus]

ASIO driver is the way for transparent latency_

many external audio cards are asio drived.

+ if you don't have a good audio card, install asio and run with internal audio [often realtek audio integrated to the mobo on pc], it's quite good and no latency

[3phase]

but to be more constructive.. forst.. abletont dont has propper midi thru.. so you cant have any extarel things going thri live to external hardware.. you need a midi mapper to do thos directöy outside of abeton life..

when you cant live woth that you need an midi nabled sequencer.. like cubase or logic for example.. but actually samplitude, acid, protoos, digotal üerformer pr calewalk ca do it.. i dont know if fruity öoops can..


beside that you need an interface with propper drivers and a computer system that allows midi opreartion on low jitter..

its often not the atency that fucks results.its rather the wobbeling around.. a fixed latecy ca be compnesated..pdeudo random wobbeling cant..

beside some midiclocking with audio signals mido on apple computers under tiger was in the late versions extremly good..factor 20 better than on windows machines.. got worse again in leopard.. on snowleopard i cant tell yet..

and the best tip. get yourself an atari ega st 2 or 4 with emagic unitor and software or logic 3 and the ..?? was it calles midex aswell? ..on my unitor/notator setup i have the sequencer running since half a year 24/7 no crash..great timing even as a slave.. sounds futuristic?

however ..only helps with real instruments...

[morerecords]

yes- 3 phase, that sounds like my issue- switching from logic to abelton. but I need to use ableton, I cant believe that ableton has such a slow turn sending midi out/thru messages. there must be a reason why, but WHY? weird.

i am wondering if I buy a seperate USB midi interface will resolve the issue. a musician could never get accustomed to these little latenencies without fucking up their flow, this is too irratating. 2ms is pretty damn noticable when playing...

I never had these problems with the serial port way back when...even with usb 1.0 when I got the steinberg midex...

its either ableton MIDI design flaw or its because of midi integration into soundcard and audio delays...

[WaveRider]

I am wondering how to get around the latency issues required for audio processing, becuase they are messin up my MIDI sequencing.

you are talking external midi to hardware?

yeah that's a bitch!!!!!


it should be explained by Ableton... but you're on your own...


there are lots of possibles scenarios.... I use a couple of setups that work in sync. ...very long to explain...
really depends how your are set-up if I explain what I do it probably would not apply to you anyway

[rikhyray]

I never had these problems with the serial port way back when...even with usb 1.0 when I got the steinberg midex...

its either ableton MIDI design flaw or its because of midi integration into soundcard and audio delays...

. You should look at Sound on Sound- Martin Walker published some details -differences, PCI are unbeatable for latency, USB and FW vary from 3ms to over 5-6ms, add the audio latency and you really in mess.
Sadly the only mobile solution these days is RME with express, the good thing is that this solution gives you amazing low overall latency, since the audio is so ridiculously low. Any other combination of soundcard and USB controller( it hardly makes a difference to plug via midi into the audio interface, unlike with RME PCI/express where it is huge difference) can be considered decent if it is 3-5 times slower then RME. There is no any benefit getting separate midi interface, the Midex combined with Cubase was exception,the tightest non hardware solution ever.

[Hermanus]

PCI are unbeatable for latency, USB and FW vary from 3ms to over 5-6ms, add the audio latency and you really in mess.

+1

[Tone Deft]

PCI are unbeatable for latency, USB and FW vary from 3ms to over 5-6ms, add the audio latency and you really in mess.

+1

I'm calling bullshit. how do you know that?

[Hermanus]

From my tiny personal experience.

Ok I havn't had the most powerful hardware out there but;

Soundblaster Live platinum on my old desktop PC[still in use for recordings], no latency, straight direct audio i/o

E-mu 0404 Usb2.0... good for midi hardware gear recording, with a 5ms latency.
But the joy ends as soon as the set gets bigger... resulting in audio pops, then forced to get 50Ms to avoid crackles

A tiny Behringer Firewire Fca202, cool for gig outside with my laptop... always had issues with the e-mu + laptop
With the Fca, Even when i raise the latency to the maximum, i got no latency. FireWire way better than usb

both desktop and laptop are good with live7, a bit sensitive with Live8 [that I enjoy nevertheless]
So my computers are not the most powerful on the market.
48% cpu usage with 8tracks playing on the performance test, for the record

With good gear, no problem

EDIT: whoops it's late and I'm tired, I misunderstood somewhere when I quoted

To make it short, 5Ms latency means nothing with usb or Firewire
Problem comes with usb [from my experience so] when you have to raise latency for audio goodness

Damn i go to bed, here was the big moment of the day where I felt DuMb

cheers tone

[Tone Deft]

I'm not buying it.

oh god and you added that old bullshit about firewire being faster. sorry, that's another rumor I read from time to time that can't be substantiated.

it's no disrespect to you or rikhray but stuff like this can be measured and figured out. a 'seat of the pants' feel is a weak argument at best. you're comparing different computers and sound cards to each other? that's your experiment? it's a bad one, too many variables.

please don't spread rumors about audio when you don't know the facts, this is how bad info gets spread. "someone posted it at KVR and the Ableton forum so it must be true." please stop. you might even be right but this is a bad practice.

I've googled a bit, haven't found anything substantial yet. I would definitely like to know the answer.

let's figure this out for real!!

[Hermanus]

Well You know what?

That's true what you said... I agree with all your arguments
and I would like to know too

I really need some rest, have a good night

[rikhyray]

It is so common that people confuse midi latency with audio latency, like if midi latency was non existent.
midi test utility:
http://earthvegaconnection.com/evc/prod ... l#download

some examples, old but give some idea about differences PCI, USB and FW.
http://earthvegaconnection.com/evc/prod ... sults.html
still recommend reading Martin Walkers article on SOS, he definitely knows much regarding the subject.

ps. @ tone:
I am not type who spreads nonsense, neither have intrests in useless speculations ( what some popular DJ -with no musician or engineer background- might say or think about Ableton Live sound ). Do some google search and you might find better, info that links above
Those differences -PCI vs.USB,FW are rather well known, unfortunately the manufacturers do not care much what might be better for users and often abandon technologies which work much better than what they bring as new.
I am OK using good USB keyboard to record VST but when recording hardware synth or drum/percussion VST using standard midi in/outs via PCI RME is worth it, if not necessity.

[Tone Deft]

those links go to blank pages.

can you find that SOS article? is it the one from 2002?