Why would I want to buy NI Maschine? Discuss...

[Piplodocus]

I was thinking of buying a 4x4 trigger pad for Live's drum racks (as discussed yesterday here... http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178047)

Out of curiosity I ended up looking into Maschine because, again, it's a 16 pad trigger thing that would be ideal for making beats. Maschine would be too expensive, but Maschine Mikro is "only" twice the price of say the Korg PadKontrol or Akai MPD26. It's still a lot more than I'd like to spend really, but I just got thinking that it seems a lot more for the money than just a "dumb" MIDI controller.

It's kinda hard to see what it gives me overall though. Most of the videos seem to be showing how I can cut up and edit samples and assign them to the 16 pads. If I'm always gonna have my Macbook and Live if I'm doing stuff, do I need something that does all that stuff or is a waste and just doubling up functionality I ready have, in a maybe slightly more easy package? Can I not cut up, edit and mess about with beats, slices, synth wobbly bits, etc in Live's drum racks using my mouse just as easily? The simpler the better?

I see it will also host VSTs. So I guess that would save CPU usage, no? But equally I just use Live Suite at the moment, and wouldn't be able to afford any new VSTs if I bought Maschine Mikro. So does it come with ones that are really worthwhile if you don't also own Komplete or something?

Obviously it will give me a load of samples, but is this a pretty basic set, it's not like full Komplete is it?

So, Maschine users/ex-users/wannabe users, explain to me in simple terms why I'd want to pay the extra for one, and all the benefits it would give me. What functionality does it give me above and beyond Live with a trigger pad?

Don't forget I'd only be able to stretch to the Maschine MIKRO at best, so consider this before you tell me about functionality that's only in the full Maschine.

[JuanSOLO]

I bought Maschine and gave it my best attempt. I loved it, yet I found my self getting bogged down by trying to fuse Ableton and Maschine together.

Maschine standalone is pretty amazing and it does offer a really impressive workflow, however there are stumbling blocks when using it with Ableton.

I found my self trying to use Maschine with DrumRacks, and ways I am accustomed to in Ableton, and just getting a few simple features out of Maschine, which started to feel like I had bought an expensive controller.

One example would be that if I wanted to record midi to Live's clips, I could not use Maschines features like delete notes. Also the playback in Maschine had some syncing issues in Ableton. On the flip side I could record everything in Maschine utilize it's "workflow" features and then drag these clips from Maschine into Ableton.

If your thinking is

do I need something that does all that stuff or is a waste and just doubling up functionality I ready have, in a maybe slightly more easy package? Can I not cut up, edit and mess about with beats, slices, synth wobbly bits, etc in Live's drum racks using my mouse just as easily? The simpler the better?

I recommend getting just a Pad controller like Korg's PadKontrol, or the MPD18 controller.
Maschine definitely feels like doubling functionality, granted over time you could streamline this and make the 2 work together really nice. I chose to abandon Maschine and streamline my workflow in Ableton, and I dont miss the headache of Maschine one bit.

I feel like Maschines piano roll is not as easy to navigate if your used to Live.
Maschine does not come with any better of a sample package that you would get with Ableton. In fact puremagnetik has a much more impressive Acoustic Kit "TrapKit" made for Ableton drumRacks and it's 12 dollars.
Using Maschine as a VST will add to your CPU not decrease it.
As much hype as there is about it's workflow, I found I wanted it to do things it could not, especially in the realms of navigating effects. It does it well up to a point.

I would say simpler is better, but thats just my perspective.

There are plenty of people on this forum that will tell you you HAVE to have Maschine and how great it is, and how awesome the workflow is and so on. But consider that everyone used Live in their own way. It does have a nice integration with itself, but you will need to learn it to intergrate it with Ableton.

If I were you I'd get a used PadKontrol and the NativeKontrol template for that and forget about Maschine.

[Piplodocus]

Thanks. Helpful answer!

I like the sound of the delete note functionality, but then if I have to drag clips across from Maschine to Live, or do other workflow fiddles it probably hasn't saved me much. I wish I could easily do "delete clip" using the APC40 for instantly trashing shit guitar/vocal takes.

I like this answer as it saves me money and I can happily go for the cheaper option! It'll be a lot better than my current keyboard, as usually I end up writing them with the mouse in the end! And with the money I can put all the money I save into a pot for L9 upgrade, or get a new tattoo!

I just didn't want to buy the Korg PK then find out in 6 months I really regretted it and I should have saved a bit more and made the stretch to Maschine for some killer feature or workflow thing. Right now I don't really wanna learn more new stuff tbh, I should be writing/playing/practising instead. So it'll save me more fiddling, making templates, and all that "new music toy" procrastination!

[JuanSOLO]

I should be writing/playing/practising instead. So it'll save me more fiddling, making templates, and all that "new music toy" procrastination!

Yeah I have been on this same thing, especially after selling Maschine.

SO, do you have an APC40?
I pretty much got my APC40 doing everything I wanted out of Maschine, minus great Pads.
Granted I use lots of help like the NativeKontrol apC-CL3 and some crazy Bomes shit.

I am hoping to post a new video soon of a breakdown of what I have going on for my APC40 and Live.

[Piplodocus]

Yep! APC40 hasn't made my signature diagram yet though (but is written underneath!).

I have a reasonable amount of control/knobs with the APC40 (and the Axiom). I also have 3 pedals on the FCB1010 dedicated to scene changes on most banks (up/down/play). So this current requirement is all about the 16 pads so I can hammer out percussion and drum parts without using the mouse and thinking out the rhythms to the grid or using the keyboard keys, and also do it with more groove. I can play more percussion/drums stuff for longer to add greater variation, rather than duplicating clips then consolidating them to big chunks in arrange before programming more nuances or fills at section changes. So it's mostly for production/writing at the moment, which is kind of ironic that the desire to purchase a set of MIDI trigger pads was inspired by watching Subsource this weekend, where they use the hand-percussion triggers for triggering fat dubstep notes and modulate them in the context of a full live band! So I like the idea of the Korg PK as I can play fat notes/samples on pads, and modulate them with the XY pad, as well as do percussion whilst experimenting with that fill/flam feature of the XY pad if I practice with it.

(P.S. If you like rock and dubstep type stuff check Subsource out... http://subsource.co.uk/index2.html. If they're not big in the next year or two I'd be very surprised. They make Pendulum look like clumsy, boring oafs, especially live!)

[beatmunga]

I was thinking of buying a 4x4 trigger pad for Live's drum racks.

I know that this thread is about the Maschine, but 2 x Akai LPD8 (1 above the other) makes a very cheap, very sturdy and very useable 16 pads. And they match the APC 40 styling perfectly if you are a bit of a studio ponce like me...

[patrick.olson86]

I use maschine and live hand in hand. Not sure of your workflow, but I build my drums in Maschine and route them to Ableton. Every so often there are sounds I want in maschine and route those as well. Otherwise I'll use Live's instruments or plugins. It's pretty handy for my workflow, though. It's more intuitive for me to use pads when chopping and playing back samples. I do like drum racks but I can't figure out how to get maschine to control drum racks. Not sure if it's even possible - granted I didnt' search too hard because I found this easy workaround.

[convex]

I feel like Maschines piano roll is not as easy to navigate if your used to Live.

This is one of my main gripes about Maschine. NI has managed to make Maschine very easy to use in most regards in terms of hands-on manipulation, but editing patterns you've created with a mouse is brutal.

It's unnecessarily hard to grab notes both to move them and extend them. Yes, yes, Maschine is all about the buttons, and pads and knobs, but I should be able to easily move a note without it inexplicably jumping all over the screen.

The Maschine software also suffers from NI's craptastic zoom implementation which is embarrasingly bad, particularly for Ableton users as it's almost impossible to keep the desired area centered.

I see it will also host VSTs. So I guess that would save CPU usage, no?

I find the opposite is true because its so easy to layer a bunch of synths and samples, and suddenly I'm well above half of my available power. The Maschine kits and instruments don't seem to tax the CPU too terribly themselves, actually.

The integrated NI Komplete synth patch/kit browsing and hosting may be my favorite feature of Maschine. I can very quickly load up and tweak my favorite sounds to go with whatever beat I've just banged out.

[sigabort]

I tend you use maschine as a scratch pad for ideas. i build beats, drop in some effects, build patterns in there as the workflow is really nice and it's really cool for coming up with new ideas. Once I've got some good ideas down and patterns I like I tend to bounce everything to audio and progress in Live from there... Less tempted then to keep fiddling with things (this is something I do more and more in Liva also)

Ulitmately, it's a hell of a lot of fun to play around with and is constantly spawning new ideas

[djadonis206]

I just unplugged Maschine from my computer. Simply because Geist is better for me. I'm waiting to see what Maschine version 2 looks like. If it can't compete with Geist, Craigslist.

[starving student]

I should be writing/playing/practising instead. So it'll save me more fiddling, making templates, and all that "new music toy" procrastination!

Yeah I have been on this same thing, especially after selling Maschine.

SO, do you have an APC40?
I pretty much got my APC40 doing everything I wanted out of Maschine, minus great Pads.
Granted I use lots of help like the NativeKontrol apC-CL3 and some crazy Bomes shit.

I am hoping to post a new video soon of a breakdown of what I have going on for my APC40 and Live.

if you want to do the things Juan is describing in this post then maschine is definitely not the better option for you, it's remarkably an easier affair and simpler to use maschine than Juans approach, the thing is that his approach is what works for him. You gotta do what turns you on to make music.
forget about the video clips that you've seen of people using maschine to sample, edit and put samples on pads, look at the maschine videos of people using maschine to control ableton live as it seems like that's where your interest really is. just search for maschine controling live on youtube

[JuanSOLO]

it's remarkably an easier affair and simpler to use maschine than Juans approach,

Yes it is simple to plug Maschine in as a VST set up some routing in Ableton and start working with Maschine out of the box. Maschine has a lot of buttons and functions that do what they say and thats really awesome.
HOWEVER, to integrate some of Maschine's best features to work seamlessly with Ableton's best features:
I found myself contemplating where the two integrate with the least amount of hassle so I could continue making music instead of making functionality.
I started to consider sacrificing a workflow I was already good at in Live in hopes of gaining some feature in Maschine I thought really mattered.
I tried giving up simple things in Live to try and do it more efficiently with Maschine, yet realizing how much I rely on those things in Live and how lame Maschine is at some simple tasks.
Eventually I was back to an Ableton Live workflow with an expensive drum pad controller who's software is great up front but easily found it's limits because I had taken Live's abilities for granted due to it's current version being 3 years old.

Things like this made Maschines simplicity start to look anything but easy.

Considering the OP was looking to spend less money and was already making comments about mouse clicks vs Maschine, it seemed logical to advise against it.

I will say this, if Maschine offers anything REALLY important, it's recording automation to clips. I have hope Live 9 will finally offer this, and figured by the time I got comfortable with Maschine, Live 9 would be out and Maschine would get about as much use as Battery.

[starving student]

yeah in my opinion too doesn't seem like maschine is the way to go from his post, I mean he's almost asking to use the mouse, maschine is going in
the complete opposite direction, he did say he was only going to be able to afford the mikro but still even the mikro is geared towards less mousing than the typical drumpad controllers out there, he could have prob easily found a maschine mk 1 with all the knobs on craigslist for a good price but
I just don't get the feeling that he's really into what maschine is trying to offer.

[Piplodocus]

Yeah, after looking at more Maschine/Ableton videos I've come to the conclusion that Machine would be great if I was forever cutting up and editing samples and doing MPC-ish things. For what I do though, especially since I have the APC40, it'd just a annoying additional level of workflow complexity, and more software, to get in my way. Think I finally see the whole "point" of Maschine, but it's not for the kind of production I normally do.

I use Live more as a good old fashioned DAW, with session view for writing and jamming, with occasional delving into the world of sampling. Maschine is more for big-time sample heads I figure, it's not for me.

[starving student]

good thread man, juan knows what he's talkin about. it's the little things that get overlooked sometimes but they are just as important when trying to find what's right for you.