Warp/Export & Rewire issues

[EdRyan]

Hi everyone. First time posting here under my 'new' account. I've popped up occasionally on the old one whilst I had 7LE. I got rid of that and I'm now onto the full on suite. Woo !

Anyhow, I'm having a couple of issues. I have emailed Ableton directly twice with this information, but have not had a reply. So I'm throwing it out here to see if anyone else has had this, or at least knows how to answer me.

I have noticed that warped tracks do not seem to keep their accuracy during the bounce process. Upon importing the resulting file into another daw (and back into Live for the matter) and setting the correct time base and bpm values, Ive noticed that the waveform is off compared to where I warped it to.

This is the view of the original file being warped in Live:


This is the view of the resulting bounce being reimported in Live:


Same behaviour occurring in Logic 9.0.2:


This occurs throughout the entire waveform. I corrected the first kick of every bar. It also happens in another file, in which I warped at a 1/4 (every kick) for greater accuracy. It's not even consistent. Some appear early whilst others are late.

Another issue I've had is that there seems to be a small delay in sync between the playheads of Live and Logic or Record. When trying the phase invert test, I got a high pass output of the track playing. This happened all the time with Logic and Live, randomly with Logic & Record. I suspect that in Live's rewire implementataion a delay was fixed on purpose, but I'm worried about if/how this affects the way I'd mix stuff going over Rewire.

Currently, these two questions are scuppering me. I can't bounce files that seem accurate, nor am I sure that I'd mix right over Rewire. Answers per-lease

[articlep]

I'm having a similar rewire issue with Live 8.

I rewire a set into Pro Tools and some of the tracks are late - To get around this I tried bouncing each track separately but the bounced tracks have the same delay issue.

I'm using a G5 ppc dual core 2.7Ghz, with PT 7 and Live 8

I really need this to work, does anyone have any ideas?

[EdRyan]

A few things to check.

Is it specific to certain Rewire objects/ports?
Is it specific to certain tracks in Live?
Is it specific to particular files in Live?

If any of the above is identifiable, then you need to start looking at others issues. I suspect the most likely culprit would be those with plugins that don't have latency correction issues correctly. Infact, actually..... Protools LE has no latency correction whatsoever. This could be the culprit. Some of your tracks are being corrected for latency, others may not be....depending on the plugs you might be using.
Try bouncing the same stems. One with Live running standalone. Then another with Live running through Protools. Compare the files on screen and if you can see the offset...you know that's an issue.

Well. 3 or so weeks after initial contact regarding this issue. And nobody from Ableton can seemingly answer my question. After the poor answers to questions I asked about upgrades and pricing before selling LE, Ableton are now a bit fat 0 and bottom of the pile for customer service. Followed closely by Propellerhead, who seem equally keen to avoid answering questions on how solid the timing of Rewire can be. Tshhhhk

[EdRyan]

I apologise for my rant above. However....I'm still waiting.

[dom]

Hi Ed!

Did you check your spam folder?
As long as you use Complex or Complex Pro, you should get exactly the same result in other products that make use of those ZPlane timestretch algorithms.
While sounding nice on mixed materials like full tracks, Complex and Complex pro are not sample accurate.
Unlike the other warp modes in Live they also already alter the sound being played at the samples original speed.
Just activate warp, and render it at its original speed and compare the waveforms.

What you see during warping is the original waveform and how you want the warp mode to affect it in timing using the warp markers. After it gets processed by Complex or Complex Pro it will look different and different renderings will also not cancel out, as there are slight differences in phase.
But this should only happen on phase level and not result in not syncing up anymore to the desired tempo you warped it for.

Best,
Dom

[EdRyan]

Hi Dom. thankyou for the reply. I am currently macbookless due to repairs,so cannot look at live. That clarifies the warp situation, but did not answer my Rewire query. It also raises new questions.
Why cant warping be sample accurate in complex & pro modes, also what is the maximum degree of innacuracy at different sample rates? I would say these are important facts that people should be aware of. I bought Live on the basis of being able to correct timing of old vinyl at such small levels. So an error/inaccuracy warping in these modes is quite a big drawback for me.
I check my junk often. This is the first reply I have had. Thanks again