Group track clips

[Poster]

Just had an idea for a group track clip..

The idea is to create a clip on a group track scene..
In this clip you would be able to draw an arrangement with all clips for that scene within the group track..





So the Group Clip will act as a mini arranger..
There could also be automation envelopes for all devices that sit on the group track itself..
Maybe you would even be able to drag a Group Clip to the Arranger and drop the clips as a mini arrangement..

[outershpongolia]

hadn't thought of using them as arrangments or sequencing but for dummy clip stuff it'd be amazing..

[alex.the.forge]

cool! that looks like a quite elegant way to approach the 'meta clips' idea!

[Poster]

cool! that looks like a quite elegant way to approach the 'meta clips' idea!

I just sat here tonight, again totally disappointed with Session view, then noticed those empty group tracks..

Still this is a very, very 'safe' and limited take on meta clips..
Because for instance you'll need a lot of tracks inside the group track when you're just cutting up one sample into multiple parts..

So I still would like to be able to set the start/end marker or loop range per 'clip', inside that mini arranger.. ermm, that would actually be meta clips..

[Angstrom]

I've been sat here doing a similar thing.
Unfortunately the track I am working on has a lot of grouped drums (some midi, some audio clips), and 'arranging' the groups in arrangement is (of course) impossible. You must open up the group and move everything inside ... and not make an easy mistake in selection, or while moving any automation that might be in there.

It goes without saying that I want Session to give us more power.
Specifically I want session to be able to handle more complex clip combinations, and allow those complex combinations to be triggered as a clip.

[alex.the.forge]

...
Specifically I want session to be able to handle more complex clip combinations, and allow those complex combinations to be triggered as a clip.

it does seem that group tracks have opened up *some* kind of potential for something like this

[Poster]

...
Specifically I want session to be able to handle more complex clip combinations, and allow those complex combinations to be triggered as a clip.

it does seem that group tracks have opened up *some* kind of potential for something like this

it sure does, but Steve is right; this still doesn't allow for complex combinations, at least not in a very convenient way..

instead of grouping tracks horizontally you maybe can group clips vertically or something like that..
you still need that mini arranger though..

[alex.the.forge]

...
Specifically I want session to be able to handle more complex clip combinations, and allow those complex combinations to be triggered as a clip.

it does seem that group tracks have opened up *some* kind of potential for something like this

it sure does, but Steve is right; this still doesn't allow for complex combinations, at least not in a very convenient way..

instead of grouping tracks horizontally you maybe can group clips vertically or something like that..
you still need that mini arranger though..

maybe that in combination with something like the "clip freeze" or some kind of group clip shell in the arranger that you could then drag into session when it's frozen would be a solution?

I guess another option could also be a kind of "scene fold" which I think we've also discussed before where you could group and hide a number of scenes and they will just play one after the other

if you could then do this with group track "scenes" as well then it could work as you described

so in other words, in your mock up breakz, build up, end theme etc would not be along the same scene, they would each be a scene below the previous and you would group the "group scenes" - you would just remove the stop buttons if you wanted any to keep playing

I guess it's like a kind of follow actions for scenes but visualised rather than just in numbers like normal follow actions

[Poster]

but the thing is that whether it'll be scene groups or group track clips, you still need too much of both; scenes or tracks..
having all clips inside one clip in the clip view saves a lot of screen estate..

besides that you're not seeing the different clips in relation to each other on a timeline..
that's why you need them all together inside the clip view..


I guess this group track clip thing is just another idea and meta clips can pretty much only exist the way Steve described in his initial mock-up..

[alex.the.forge]

but the thing is that whether it'll be scene groups or group track clips, you still need too much of both; scenes or tracks..
having all clips inside one clip in the clip view saves a lot of screen estate..

besides that you're not seeing the different clips in relation to each other on a timeline..
that's why you need them all together inside the clip view..


I guess this group track clip thing is just another idea and meta clips can pretty much only exist the way Steve described in his initial mock-up..

but the point I was making is, if you could group and hide scenes or group scenes then they would end up taking up the same amount of space as one scene once they are hidden, and the mock up you drew would be a good way of controlling what is in there - so when the group scene was selected you see what you drew at the bottom

likewise you would get a similar view if you used a frozen group of clips and selected it

edit: also - that mock up you drew also has a lot of empty space next to it just begging to be filled!

[Angstrom]

I'm sure they have a plan for addressing this somehow.
I just hope that the plan they go with, whatever it is, that they try it with a testbase first.
My own opinion of some recent large function inclusions is that they suffered massively from not testing the theories on users right at the drawingboard / wireframe stage.

Of course - there could have been some super-secret wireframe testing going on, but I suspect that the process was more like : specification then implementation, then a meeting about problems arising, then alteration. "Agile development", but all in-house and based around the team feeding back on itself.

I really hope that whatever they do to expand Session's limited clip handling and arrangement features that they trial many varied strategies on a reasonably wide user testbase. I hope they don't merely ask Gerhard which idea is best and then start building it.

I know the team have strong views on what is and isn't appropriate for the app, but sometimes they can be suprised to be proven wrong. Better to find out a nice UX shortcut when it's all still at the mock-up stage rather than when it's in the Beta stage.

Yep, there's still plenty of peanuts in the peanut gallery

[Poster]

but the thing is that whether it'll be scene groups or group track clips, you still need too much of both; scenes or tracks..
having all clips inside one clip in the clip view saves a lot of screen estate..

besides that you're not seeing the different clips in relation to each other on a timeline..
that's why you need them all together inside the clip view..


I guess this group track clip thing is just another idea and meta clips can pretty much only exist the way Steve described in his initial mock-up..

but the point I was making is, if you could group and hide scenes or group scenes then they would end up taking up the same amount of space as one scene once they are hidden, and the mock up you drew would be a good way of controlling what is in there - so when the group scene was selected you see what you drew at the bottom

likewise you would get a similar view if you used a frozen group of clips and selected it

edit: also - that mock up you drew also has a lot of empty space next to it just begging to be filled!

I think we have to distinct two different ideas here..
'meta clips' and 'scene or group track clips'..

scene or group track clips would be a nice addition but still not fully address the issues I'm having..

user scenario..
say I have a 1 bar drum loop and want to cut it up/rearrange it to a 4 bar loop, having a total of say 28 clip slices..

two issues arise:

1. I want to do this actual cutting/pasting/rearranging in Session..
2. Where and how to store these 28 clips?..


1. To be able do this:
- I have to see the actual waveform..
- I have to see multiple clips next to each other on a timeline so you get their relation based on a visible waveform..
- There has to be a way of cutting/pasting in relation to a visible waveform..
- Pasting parts of other clips..

In case of scene or group track clips I cannot do the above 4 points..
Then cutting and trimming different loop slices requires me to go to one of the 28 slices,
adjust the loop settings, then go back to that mini arranger and draw that slice..
Mind you; those 28 slices are not there to begin with anyway..
So how would you do that? First slice that one clip to 16 slices, each sitting in their own clip slot,
then start to draw in that mini arranger and just hope your slices make sense?

2. In this scenario I need 28 clip storage slots.. That's alot of space.. And alot of folding/unfolding..
While storing all slices in the Clip view requires only one clip slot..


The vital thing here is that you have to be able to see a clip's content (audio waveform or MIDI notes) next to each other..
That leads right back to how you would do this in the Arranger..

[Angstrom]

My short response: I like this idea

[djgroovy]

I like it too!

[outershpongolia]

+1, even something simple like having midi notes, program changes, etc in little data clips on the grouped track would help with sending MIDI to another computer to control visuals, or switching programs on hardware synths, etc..