How would I create a send that won't affect Master level?

pajhonka · Post by **pajhonka** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:53 pm

I'm working on a live set where I have to dial a track into a send to get effects. The only problem is if I have the track going to the Master AND the Send, it's too loud. If I have it going to Sends Only, when I pull back the send level, I also pull back the volume...is their a way to do a DRY/WET to a Send without affecting Gain? Thanks!

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:01 pm

http://sonictransfer.com/mixing-ableton ... ugin.shtml

RePeter · Post by **RePeter** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:03 pm

Try this, might help,
set up 2 Returns,
on the first return (return A) add a utility, and click the phaze left /phaze right buttons (this will swap the left and right signals).
turn up the send to return B on return A (you may need to enable this by right clicking on it) so everything which runs through return A gets passed onto return B
Now put your FX on return B

When you want to use the fx on return B, turn the track's send A up.

What will happen is that as you increase send A, the utility fx will play the exact phase opposite, thus cancelling it out, but still send the original signal to send B...

Sorry it's not a very good description, but the idea is there.

RPT

RePeter · Post by **RePeter** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:04 pm

dang, beaten to it!

pajhonka · Post by **pajhonka** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:05 pm

You guys are both awesome. Thank you so much!

Nokatus · Post by **Nokatus** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:37 am

These days there is no need to waste two return channels in order to use the Utility phase inversion trick, though.

On the desired return channel, just place the effect(s) inside a rack, and create another chain for the Utility inversion. Now it uses only one return channel, and you can also drag it conveniently for later use, in a nicely self-contained form.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:37 am

ive never understood the need to use to returns....cant you just place the utility before the effect on the same channel? sure its doing the same thing?

Nokatus · Post by **Nokatus** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:41 pm

Meef Chaloin wrote:ive never understood the need to use to returns....cant you just place the utility before the effect on the same channel? sure its doing the same thing?

The trick of using another return, and nowadays a simple rack, is to get the Utility inversion working in parallel and independent of the effect. (Although, when using two return channels, it's actually the inverted version of the signal which gets effected, unless you add another inversion in front of the effect on the second return channel.) The main thing is that the dry inverted signal is being kept separate.

But why the separation in the first place? Usually send effects are used all wet, and the dry signal isn't let through at all. Think of the most common ones, a delay or a reverb: when they are used on a return channel, they are usually 100% wet. You get the delay taps or the reverb effect when you raise the send level, not the effect and more of the dry signal.

The Utility trick adds the 100% wet effect and a phase inverted version of the dry signal into the mix. This way you actually get the effect and you attenuate the dry component out of the mix at the same time. By controlling the gain on the Utility plugin, or the level of the rack chain Utility resides in, you can change the level of that attenuation independent of the effect operation.

If the effect(s) you have on the return channel offer a dry/wet knob, you could indeed place the Utility in front of the effect and adjust the dry/wet ratio. However, having the Utility parallel to the effects gives you independent control over the attenuation level, and the default case is adding just as much of the inverted signal into the mix as you're feeding dry signal into the return.

In comparison, if you only use the dry/wet control of the effect, and similarly want to attenuate the same amount you're sending (that is, letting 100% of the inverted dry signal through), you don't have any effect left at the 100% dry setting

. In this case you would need to juggle the levels to get the desired setting: dry/wet control at an in-between position, then raising the overall level to meet the desired attenuation, still keeping the effect at a nice volume.

As we now have the racks at our disposal, placing a parallel Utility inversion is a very convenient way to go about it. No hassle, a few mouse clicks (five?), and you have a single independent control for the attenuation level.

chapelier fou · Post by **chapelier fou** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:17 am

I am not in front of my computer right now, but: isn't it possible simply with the A/B crossfader?