MaxforLive runtime?

[jeremydb]

a) Does Max5 still have that copy protection, what'sitsface... PACE?

b) If yes, does Max For Live use it as well?

Max 5 uses PACE for copy protection. Max for Live uses Live's copy protection. If you purchase MaxMSP, MaxMSP will be PACE-protected. If you only have Live + Max for Live, you'll never have to deal with PACE (although to be honest, PACE is one of the most transparent CP experiences I deal with on any regular basis).

jb

[djsynchro]

I hope that the price will be reasonable, if it is I think there are going to be a boatload of new Max users!

[Coupe70]

By all means feel free to poke and pry. I'll do my best to provide reasonable answers to questions over here, as well.

jb

and now we are in stereo!

so, maybe I am being a little dense, but from that discussion I still couldn't quite get a definitive answer to the question:

will there be a separate MaxForLive runtime, which will allow using but not editing Live devices created with maxforlive?

This is not part of our initial plans. As I mentioned on the Max forum, Live users who do not own Max for Live will be able to use, but not edit, Max Devices, if Live is in test/demo mode (just like you can use Operator or Sampler in this mode, but not save, etc.). But the product is really symbolized by the Edit Button, and version 1 is targeted at users who want to engage with what lies beyond it.

jb

i would not expect this runtime thing to be free, but much cheaper
than the full max for live - like reaktor session was...

[longjohns]

It seems appropriate for it to function as read-only in Live Demo Mode

I would find it hard to believe that there could be a free runtime for use within Live in normal mode.

I suppose that would be within the Max business model but not in the Ableton one...

users will be 90% (whatever) of the market, so you can't just charge the 10% developers and rely on their generosity or individual entrepreneurships (which has nothing to do with Ableton OR Cycling $ anyway, at least directly) to make the thing work.

[Coupe70]

users will be 90% (whatever) of the market, so you can't just charge the 10% developers and rely on their generosity or individual entrepreneurships (which has nothing to do with Ableton $ anyway) to make the thing work.

but ableton (and others) could sell single max devices.
so everyone could buy the devices he needs/wants.

[ilia]

will there be a separate MaxForLive runtime, which will allow using but not editing Live devices created with maxforlive?

This is not part of our initial plans. As I mentioned on the Max forum, Live users who do not own Max for Live will be able to use, but not edit, Max Devices, if Live is in test/demo mode (just like you can use Operator or Sampler in this mode, but not save, etc.). But the product is really symbolized by the Edit Button, and version 1 is targeted at users who want to engage with what lies beyond it.

jb

I understand how this would make sense from a MAX user/developer's viewpoint, but there is probably a large portion of Live users who have no time/desire/expertise to create or edit their own MAX patches, but who would be very interested in using Live devices made by others. Providing a separate pricepoint-of-entry for such users seems like a reasonable idea.

[jeremydb]

users will be 90% (whatever) of the market, so you can't just charge the 10% developers and rely on their generosity or individual entrepreneurships (which has nothing to do with Ableton $ anyway) to make the thing work.

but ableton (and others) could sell single max devices.
so everyone could buy the devices he needs/wants.

I can assure you that someone has given this idea some thought.

jb

[jeremydb]

will there be a separate MaxForLive runtime, which will allow using but not editing Live devices created with maxforlive?

This is not part of our initial plans. As I mentioned on the Max forum, Live users who do not own Max for Live will be able to use, but not edit, Max Devices, if Live is in test/demo mode (just like you can use Operator or Sampler in this mode, but not save, etc.). But the product is really symbolized by the Edit Button, and version 1 is targeted at users who want to engage with what lies beyond it.

jb

I understand how this would make sense from a MAX user/developer's viewpoint, but there is probably a large portion of Live users who have no time/desire/expertise to create or edit their own MAX patches, but who would be very interested in using Live devices made by others. Providing a separate pricepoint-of-entry for such users seems like a reasonable idea.

I get it from both perspectives, although I think that 'longjohns' hit the nail on the head with his response.

In this endeavor, though, I'm just a coder, and I have little or no control over things like marketing decisions and product planning. I personally think that, when you see how a) nice the workflow is, b) easy it is to make even little devices that significantly change the sound and feel of your music and c) well-documented/tutorialed the whole thing is, you'll want to hit that edit button, too!

jb

[Coupe70]

i am a bit confused now - did i misunderstand something ?
or should i read it like this:

version 1 is targeted at users who want to engage with what lies beyond it

[jeremydb]

i am a bit confused now - did i misunderstand something ?
or should i read it like this:

version 1 is targeted at users who want to engage with what lies beyond it

As in, the initial release of the product.

[stringtapper]

Yeah now that I've rolled it around I can't see them making M4L a free runtime because in the end, whether you're interested in patching or not, it's an added functionality. Of course if you buy it and you're not patching I think you've kind of missed the point.

[Coupe70]

well, whatever. what i can say is, i had a close look on max some time ago
and i personally do not need its editing possibilities and i am quite sure
that i cannot afford max for live (the upgrade from live 6 to 8 alone will cost
me 199 euros). but i would love to buy me the one or the other extra
feature for live made with max if it was possible...

[jeremydb]

Yeah now that I've rolled it around I can't see them making M4L a free runtime because in the end, whether you're interested in patching or not, it's an added functionality. Of course if you buy it and you're not patching I think you've kind of missed the point.

And you might really love the devices we're shipping with M4L -- the Step Sequencer, for instance, and maybe having access to that device is enough for you to take the plunge. And not only the device, but the GUTS, too! How cool is it that if the Step Sequencer does 98% of everything you wished it did, that you could pop it open and custom-build that remaining 2% yourself?

jb

[djsynchro]

http://www.ableton.com/extend

It comes with a Step Sequencer, a Buffer Shuffler, and a really cool loop thing.
Once it gets going you can expect a gazillion effects, and there'll be really outlandish experimental things that Ableton wouldn't do as part of the standard Live package. And, they sit in the devices bar with the other Live effects. So depending on the price and the strength of the library as it grows you can decide if you want it or not.

[parma]

desire to not do something you've never tried.

probably if I met you it'd make more sense.

I have tried it though - demoed Max/MSP at version 4. Went through the tutorials, thought it was really cool and there were tons of possibilities and...that's it. It was cool but it wasn't fun for me. I can totally see where someone else could enjoy it though.

I spent this summer (like an hour each night) reconditioning/modifying a Fender Rhodes. My wife couldn't understand why I wanted to spend so much time fiddling around with "that thing". For me, it was one of the most rewarding and fun music related endeavors I've undertaken.

Basically I'm trying to say "different strokes for different folks" (but trying not to say it because I hate that saying)

I was just pointing out that a runtime only version wouldn't be as a big an issue if Max was priced aggressively.

ah - got ya. Yes -if it's priced "nicely" then this whole runtime thing becomes moot for me because even if I didn't initially want to "roll my own" I may sometime in the future and if it's cheap enough then it may be worth it.

Live users who do not own Max for Live will be able to use, but not edit, Max Devices, if Live is in test/demo mode

and that is exactly the way you bastards are going to end up getting my money anyway - show me all the cool stuff I could use without running in demo mode if all I do is hit that purchase button

like I said - I pretty much answered my own question in my first post and the more I think about it and hear what others have to say I can see why there would be no runtime version.

I guess I'll have to wait and see what kind of pre-made thingies are included (or the crazy things users come up with) to see whether or not I'll bite. I'm sure I'll talk myself into it before the night is over!