Best quality Analogue to Digital converter

[justin]

can you post the rest of your signal chain? I highly doubt your sound card is the weak link in your studio.

slight deviation from original post, but a good point. i often find that speakers and room acoustics are the worst enemy. it doesnt matter if u spend stupid money on a top of the range sound card if your listening environment is not up to it...

agree with comments made so far on sound cards. i've had great results with RME / MOTU gear.

ez. j

[Tone Deft]

not that I doubt your talent. but much more has been done with much less.

don't clip and you're gold, maybe platinum.

come on baby...

nice retreat but you promised me some knowledge about preamps and signal chain.

I am a little concerned about the 16bit 44.1khz limit of the Rane.

I wanna future proof (a little) with my sampling.

what's with the attitude? not today man, I gotta head cold and am ready to vent.

retreat? I didn't promise anything, just trying to help a n00b who still hasn't posted his signal chain. wtf is on the output?

16 bit 44.1k is perfectly fine. think about it this way, there's NOTHING you know about audio that the people at Rane don't know. every single CD you've heard is 16 bit 44.1k and I'm sure you've heard CDs that blow you away. even then you may have never heard audio at 24 or 32 bits, at 96kHz or higher sample rates, you've probably never experienced the standard you're striving for.

future proof? nah. the industry is not headed towards 192kHz 32 bit audio, everyone knows that specs like that are bullshit and not necessary in application.

[Enrique]

don't clip and you're gold, maybe platinum.

Nah, platinum would be to record at a level, where the gear is designed to run. I have to go now, I'll come back later...

[Tone Deft]

Nah, platinum would be to record at a level, where the gear is designed to run.

there is no such level. all the people that touch the tracks can decide how far below 0dB they want the mix, it's personal preference.

I have to go now, I'll come back later...

really? why?

[Enrique]

Nah, platinum would be to record at a level, where the gear is designed to run.

there is no such level. all the people that touch the tracks can decide how far below 0dB they want the mix, it's personal preference.

Just to make sure before I reply: Why are you talking about mixing, when the subject is recording? Or were you also referring to a recording?

[Tone Deft]

ah, gotcha... shit.

a soundcard is for both playback and recording, so it's all fair game?



still want to read how amazing the OP's studio is that 16 bit 44.1k isn't good enough.

[Enrique]

ah, gotcha... shit.
a soundcard is for both playback and recording, so it's all fair game?

Sure, but I'm going to explain what I had in mind anyway.

At least as important as the choice of your soundcard, although probably less important than your microphone, is to understand that recording as hot as possible (right before clipping) is WRONG! 90% of you are going to be shocked now, I know...

Just for this example: When you’re recording at exactly 0 dBFS you're about 18 dB too hot!

If you record at let’s say -3 dBFS your only about 15 dB too hot! Most digital gear is calibrated at 0 dB VU (analog) which equals -18 dBFS (digital). When you drive your signal 15 dB+ into your pre-amps headroom, you end up getting all kinds of nasty artifacts.

The 18 dB headroom is there for a reason and not to be abused. It’s there for the occasional peaks (micro transients). The bulk of your signal should ride around -18 dBFS! Occasional peaks can go a little bit into the headroom, no problem. So if you have a little -8 or -6 dBFS peak here and there, that's ok.

So really, record at low levels, you can still bring it up in your DAW. You can easily record a signal that peaks (!!!) at -47 dBFS and it will still have a higher resolution than a CD!

With this method you will not only get a much cleaner sound, the signal to noise ratio will also be lower in most cases.

All this was based on the assumption that you have recording set to 24 bit in your preferences. 16 bit (which is fine too) has a headroom of around 12 dB.

[Tone Deft]

OK. nothing new to me. a little off topic but that's fine.

[lola]

lynx

[BinaryB]

dp

[BinaryB]

not that I doubt your talent. but much more has been done with much less.

don't clip and you're gold, maybe platinum.

come on baby...

nice retreat but you promised me some knowledge about preamps and signal chain.

I am a little concerned about the 16bit 44.1khz limit of the Rane.

I wanna future proof (a little) with my sampling.

what's with the attitude? not today man, I gotta head cold and am ready to vent.

retreat? I didn't promise anything, just trying to help a n00b who still hasn't posted his signal chain. wtf is on the output?

16 bit 44.1k is perfectly fine. think about it this way, there's NOTHING you know about audio that the people at Rane don't know. every single CD you've heard is 16 bit 44.1k and I'm sure you've heard CDs that blow you away. even then you may have never heard audio at 24 or 32 bits, at 96kHz or higher sample rates, you've probably never experienced the standard you're striving for.

future proof? nah. the industry is not headed towards 192kHz 32 bit audio, everyone knows that specs like that are bullshit and not necessary in application.

WOW Tone !

If i was a noob this would freak me out,
but i get the message through the mayhem.

In my native tongue this would translate to
Sounds like you need a cup of 'harden the fuck up'

Thanks for your initial efforts anyway.

[BinaryB]

ah, gotcha... shit.
a soundcard is for both playback and recording, so it's all fair game?

Sure, but I'm going to explain what I had in mind anyway.

At least as important as the choice of your soundcard, although probably less important than your microphone, is to understand that recording as hot as possible (right before clipping) is WRONG! 90% of you are going to be shocked now, I know...

Just for this example: When you’re recording at exactly 0 dBFS you're about 18 dB too hot!

If you record at let’s say -3 dBFS your only about 15 dB too hot! Most digital gear is calibrated at 0 dB VU (analog) which equals -18 dBFS (digital). When you drive your signal 15 dB+ into your pre-amps headroom, you end up getting all kinds of nasty artifacts.

The 18 dB headroom is there for a reason and not to be abused. It’s there for the occasional peaks (micro transients). The bulk of your signal should ride around -18 dBFS! Occasional peaks can go a little bit into the headroom, no problem. So if you have a little -8 or -6 dBFS peak here and there, that's ok.

So really, record at low levels, you can still bring it up in your DAW. You can easily record a signal that peaks (!!!) at -47 dBFS and it will still have a higher resolution than a CD!

With this method you will not only get a much cleaner sound, the signal to noise ratio will also be lower in most cases.

All this was based on the assumption that you have recording set to 24 bit in your preferences. 16 bit (which is fine too) has a headroom of around 12 dB.

Thats very interesting !

Thanks for the information mate.

I am happy with my monitoring and just want to make more of an effort to produce high quality samples. If I can improve on this I will appreciate it. This idea is definitely something i gotta think about now...
Ill be back when I have talked to some mates and tried to put this into practice.

Cheers




PS. Anyone got opinions on how the Rane TTMSL57 rates in the A>D conversion stakes ?

It sounds pretty good to me so far ... but I have not sampled much with it - just used it as a sound card for monitoring.

[filterstein]

I agree that most modern audio interfaces are good enough in terms of audio quality. You should look for something that works stable with your daw.
Drivers are important.
I get good results in Live with an echo audiofire.
If you record something like a ms20 or tr808 in 16 bit, generally speaking you'll notice a loss of bass. But that does not mean you can't make a great song with it.

When you drive your signal 15 dB+ into your pre-amps headroom, you end up getting all kinds of nasty artifacts.

Call me stupid, but i don't get it.
I don't see the problem if you record loud, but without clipping into your preamp or daw.
What you describe is what happens when the DAW output into the preamp is too hot. No need to record less loud, just pull the output to the preamp down.
I expect the other gear is level matched to the audio interface (+4 versus -10)

[Hidden Driveways]

It's a salty-dog-tool-brain move to plop into an A/D thread and bark off that it's "all about your preamps man!"

A/D is important. It effects everything you hear during playback through your monitors. Tone Doof has said in the past that the only thing you actually get to hear in your studio is a monitor so doofy dooofy doofy!

You hear your A/D too. I know you're sick and grumpy, TD, but don't be a douche.

Mr M - if your interface is a TTM 57, you should buy a different interface for the main audio card of your studio - before you spend money on an A/D box, methinks. I have the 57 too, but when I work with Ableton I use my other interface, the M-Audio Ozonic (GASP! THE HORROR! M-AUDIO IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL! Whateverz people). The Ozonic goes to 24bit 48k and has more I/O. I'm in the process of buying an RME Multiface II soundcard. Why? Even more I/O, lower latency, higher resolution, and a reputation for having amazing sound and a good clock.

Next on my list to buy is a clock. I will likely go with an Apogee Big Ben. Why? Because, I just have to know that I'm getting the best sound I can. If I buy the stupid thing and plug it into all of my digital boxes that have clock inputs and my sound quality goes up, well, then I will sleep better at night and know that I did the best I could.

I will consider buying a dedicated A/D in the future for the same reasons.

[leedsquietman]

16 bit recording is fine, so long as you are more careful with your levels, you need them hotter to reduce noise issues, but you have to also be careful to avoid clipping.

I personally prefer the extra safety net of headroom in 24 bit, but great recordings have been made in 16 bit.

Like TD said, everything is eventually dithered down to 16 bit anyway.

As much as I love DVD-Audio discs in their 24 bit, 96 Khz sound, 16 bit / 44.1 is the standard and people are moving away from hi res to compressed audio formats anyway, how many people do you know with DVD-Audio devices and how many do you know who own mp3 players. This really highlights the point. Blu-Ray will do nothing to further to change this.