Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
-
alex.the.forge
- Posts: 1424
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:29 am
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
No offense Russ, but its not in your power to dictate how people believe or how rigid those set of beliefs must be.
I know in the past during these discussions you have had a hard time understanding that as well. Its just a completely ignorant standpoint, you don't believe in God yet somehow you think you can tell others how they should define their beliefs? Somewhere you have been brainwashed into thinking that clear lines have to be drawn and any deviation is exclusion. No. Just No. It doesn't work like that and it never has. Religion is a completely individual thing, no matter how much the entity of religion tries to solidify it....it never turns out that way. Religions are an evolving entity just like anything else in this world, they change over time and even sometimes become other religions. Even the Catholic religion has changed, maybe not enough for you or me, but it has changed and will continue to change.
The real question is...does the individual thinker define the institution or does the institution define the individual thinker? Its only logical that the answer is both.
Im not Catholic, and I don't prescribe to religion as an institution, so frankly im not going to stick up for child molesting priests and all that. I also could really give a shit about the pope. He is just a typical out of the loop figurehead, its not a huge surprise by any stretch. However having come from a Catholic family on one side, and having a family member who was a prominent religious figure in the 1920-50s, I have seen plenty of examples of the good side of Catholicism. Of course I have seen plenty of negatives as well. In effect I have seen both the good and bad of all religions at some point, but I have also seen the good and bad of government and the good and bad of any type of institution. Simply put, a negative aspect doesn't invalidate the entire concept as a whole, otherwise we may as well scrap everything and devolve into chaos. Its fine to stand behind something and express your beliefs to create change as long as you respect others rights to do the same.
Or you can just get caught up in the vitriol, whatever floats your boat.
I know in the past during these discussions you have had a hard time understanding that as well. Its just a completely ignorant standpoint, you don't believe in God yet somehow you think you can tell others how they should define their beliefs? Somewhere you have been brainwashed into thinking that clear lines have to be drawn and any deviation is exclusion. No. Just No. It doesn't work like that and it never has. Religion is a completely individual thing, no matter how much the entity of religion tries to solidify it....it never turns out that way. Religions are an evolving entity just like anything else in this world, they change over time and even sometimes become other religions. Even the Catholic religion has changed, maybe not enough for you or me, but it has changed and will continue to change.
The real question is...does the individual thinker define the institution or does the institution define the individual thinker? Its only logical that the answer is both.
Im not Catholic, and I don't prescribe to religion as an institution, so frankly im not going to stick up for child molesting priests and all that. I also could really give a shit about the pope. He is just a typical out of the loop figurehead, its not a huge surprise by any stretch. However having come from a Catholic family on one side, and having a family member who was a prominent religious figure in the 1920-50s, I have seen plenty of examples of the good side of Catholicism. Of course I have seen plenty of negatives as well. In effect I have seen both the good and bad of all religions at some point, but I have also seen the good and bad of government and the good and bad of any type of institution. Simply put, a negative aspect doesn't invalidate the entire concept as a whole, otherwise we may as well scrap everything and devolve into chaos. Its fine to stand behind something and express your beliefs to create change as long as you respect others rights to do the same.
Or you can just get caught up in the vitriol, whatever floats your boat.
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/donnie
Twitter: https://twitter.com/d0nniejacks0n
Facebook: https://facebook.com/d0nniejackson
Chew.tv: http://chew.tv/donnie
RTOK @ Chew.tv: http://chew.tv/rtokmusic
Twitter: https://twitter.com/d0nniejacks0n
Facebook: https://facebook.com/d0nniejackson
Chew.tv: http://chew.tv/donnie
RTOK @ Chew.tv: http://chew.tv/rtokmusic
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
Not sure where you're coming from here Donnie.
I find religion ridiculous and irrelevant yes, but that aside this is about the Pope! People can believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't affect the rest of us, problem is, it always does.
The pope is not above the law and he should be punished for his crime, yet instead we use OUR money to parade him through the streets. Fortunately I wasn't alone and I didnt have to throw shoes to prove my point.
If you think my standpoint is not representative of the UK then think again:
http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/t ... it/1280037
I find religion ridiculous and irrelevant yes, but that aside this is about the Pope! People can believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't affect the rest of us, problem is, it always does.
The pope is not above the law and he should be punished for his crime, yet instead we use OUR money to parade him through the streets. Fortunately I wasn't alone and I didnt have to throw shoes to prove my point.
If you think my standpoint is not representative of the UK then think again:
http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/t ... it/1280037
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
This isn't just one guy ranting on a forum, the UK is pissed off!!!
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
Here is the standpoint:
That the Pope, as a citizen of Europe and the leader of a religion with many adherents in the UK, is of course free to enter and tour our country.
However, as well as a religious leader, the Pope is a head of state and the state and organisation of which he is head has been responsible for:
opposing the distribution of condoms and so increasing large families in poor countries and the spread of AIDS
promoting segregated education
denying abortion to even the most vulnerable women
opposing equal rights for lesbians, gay, bisexual and transgender people
failing to address the many cases of abuse of children within its own organisation.
rehabilitating the holocaust denier bishop Richard Williamson and the appeaser of Hitler, the war-time Pope, Pius XII.
The state of which the Pope is the head has also resisted signing many major human rights treaties and has formed its own treaties (‘concordats’) with many states which negatively affect the human rights of citizens of those states.
As a head of state, the Pope is an unsuitable guest of the UK government and should not be accorded the honour and recognition of a state visit to our country.
That the Pope, as a citizen of Europe and the leader of a religion with many adherents in the UK, is of course free to enter and tour our country.
However, as well as a religious leader, the Pope is a head of state and the state and organisation of which he is head has been responsible for:
opposing the distribution of condoms and so increasing large families in poor countries and the spread of AIDS
promoting segregated education
denying abortion to even the most vulnerable women
opposing equal rights for lesbians, gay, bisexual and transgender people
failing to address the many cases of abuse of children within its own organisation.
rehabilitating the holocaust denier bishop Richard Williamson and the appeaser of Hitler, the war-time Pope, Pius XII.
The state of which the Pope is the head has also resisted signing many major human rights treaties and has formed its own treaties (‘concordats’) with many states which negatively affect the human rights of citizens of those states.
As a head of state, the Pope is an unsuitable guest of the UK government and should not be accorded the honour and recognition of a state visit to our country.
-
leedsquietman
- Posts: 6659
- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
- Location: greater toronto area
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
A lot of these things are double edged swords.
Some rebuttals (and then I promise I will f*** off this thread)
The Pope has good relations with the Jewish and other faiths, so you're obviously more bothered things like things such as holocaust denying than the actual people who are affected by it, and Benedict himself deserted from the Nazi Youth (which was forced and mandatory) and his father hid people from the Nazis.
AIDS in Africa is caused by lifestyle choices, not because he advocates against birth control, as already stated the vast majority of Catholics use birth control (and most condoms or pills as 'safe period' isn't very safe) besides, many volunteers and missionaries give out condoms anyway, against his advice.
Abortion - more people in the world are pro life than pro choice and there are many contexts and morality issues around this debate.
Homosexuality - The Pope doesn't support gay bashing or hostility, like the majority of the globe, he just believes in traditional family with man and woman. Again, his stance is definitely not universally supported, we have diversity officers, have a full non discriminatory policy including sexual orientation, and have permitted gays and lesbians to come to our high school proms without prejudice and such in the Catholic School Board I worked in. Most Catholics here don't care less really.
Benedict was PART of a committee in the past which could have done more to bring justice to rogue priests, definitely a huge mistake and one reason why I was hoping he wouldn't be elected Pope, but at least has since made it a mission to fix this issue as a priority.
Life is just not black and white, religions have different factions with some differential interpretations. This is how it works, it's only fundamental to black and white if you choose that path and that represents a minority view. Call it cherry picking or lazy, this is how most people work. Compromise is what life is all about. If you want to hate the Pope, fine, but don't stereotype ALL Catholics as being the same.
Not many people could genuinely satisfy your list of scruples Russ (without being in denial at least), and I'm sure you're far from perfect and would make a few people's stoning lists yourself. The beauty of democracy is we can both express our opinions - although to be honest, I'm thoroughly bored by yours and mine so you can come around and hang me on a rusty meat hook if I take the bait and talk anymore politics or religion on this board.
Some rebuttals (and then I promise I will f*** off this thread)
The Pope has good relations with the Jewish and other faiths, so you're obviously more bothered things like things such as holocaust denying than the actual people who are affected by it, and Benedict himself deserted from the Nazi Youth (which was forced and mandatory) and his father hid people from the Nazis.
AIDS in Africa is caused by lifestyle choices, not because he advocates against birth control, as already stated the vast majority of Catholics use birth control (and most condoms or pills as 'safe period' isn't very safe) besides, many volunteers and missionaries give out condoms anyway, against his advice.
Abortion - more people in the world are pro life than pro choice and there are many contexts and morality issues around this debate.
Homosexuality - The Pope doesn't support gay bashing or hostility, like the majority of the globe, he just believes in traditional family with man and woman. Again, his stance is definitely not universally supported, we have diversity officers, have a full non discriminatory policy including sexual orientation, and have permitted gays and lesbians to come to our high school proms without prejudice and such in the Catholic School Board I worked in. Most Catholics here don't care less really.
Benedict was PART of a committee in the past which could have done more to bring justice to rogue priests, definitely a huge mistake and one reason why I was hoping he wouldn't be elected Pope, but at least has since made it a mission to fix this issue as a priority.
Life is just not black and white, religions have different factions with some differential interpretations. This is how it works, it's only fundamental to black and white if you choose that path and that represents a minority view. Call it cherry picking or lazy, this is how most people work. Compromise is what life is all about. If you want to hate the Pope, fine, but don't stereotype ALL Catholics as being the same.
Not many people could genuinely satisfy your list of scruples Russ (without being in denial at least), and I'm sure you're far from perfect and would make a few people's stoning lists yourself. The beauty of democracy is we can both express our opinions - although to be honest, I'm thoroughly bored by yours and mine so you can come around and hang me on a rusty meat hook if I take the bait and talk anymore politics or religion on this board.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
I have heard you make no mention of the peadophilia, in fact you've avoided it completely.
Source: Guardian Weds 15th September 2010
'More than half the Catholic clergy jailed for peadophilia activity in England and Wales are remain in the preisthood with several receiving financial support from church authorities, raising serious questions about the churches commitment to child protection'
This was also repeated as a story on C4 news that night.
I don't see much to be proud of here Leeds. I really don't. Similarly I see little most right thinking people could find defensible in any way whatsoever.
In terms of everything else you say, you can be sure I believe the opposite:
Abortion: Pro Choice. All the way.
Aids in Africa, of course he is not the sole reason but if his missionaries could encourager the use of condoms, what a difference they could make. Sadly, despite the western liberal catholic view...this ain't happening. What kind of 'lifestyle choice' do you think Africans have to make on a day to day basis?
Homosexuality and Faith schools. Big of you to 'permit' gays and lesbians to the proms. As for Catholic, or any faith, schools...no, just no. It's a shame that more catholics don't care enough to pressure their leaders too change their stanceon homosexuality. I'd like to see the pope make a positive statement in that direction. But as we know at the moment, there isn't even room for straight women in the catholic church.
A 'list of scruples"??? We're talking fundamentally about criminal activity involving the raping of children at the hands of catholic priests. The popes failure to address that properly and his involvement in covering up the crimes.
I am deeply saddened, but unfortunately not surprised, by your stance on these matters.
Source: Guardian Weds 15th September 2010
'More than half the Catholic clergy jailed for peadophilia activity in England and Wales are remain in the preisthood with several receiving financial support from church authorities, raising serious questions about the churches commitment to child protection'
This was also repeated as a story on C4 news that night.
I don't see much to be proud of here Leeds. I really don't. Similarly I see little most right thinking people could find defensible in any way whatsoever.
In terms of everything else you say, you can be sure I believe the opposite:
Abortion: Pro Choice. All the way.
Aids in Africa, of course he is not the sole reason but if his missionaries could encourager the use of condoms, what a difference they could make. Sadly, despite the western liberal catholic view...this ain't happening. What kind of 'lifestyle choice' do you think Africans have to make on a day to day basis?
Homosexuality and Faith schools. Big of you to 'permit' gays and lesbians to the proms. As for Catholic, or any faith, schools...no, just no. It's a shame that more catholics don't care enough to pressure their leaders too change their stanceon homosexuality. I'd like to see the pope make a positive statement in that direction. But as we know at the moment, there isn't even room for straight women in the catholic church.
A 'list of scruples"??? We're talking fundamentally about criminal activity involving the raping of children at the hands of catholic priests. The popes failure to address that properly and his involvement in covering up the crimes.
I am deeply saddened, but unfortunately not surprised, by your stance on these matters.
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
This was the first protest I've attended in my life. Not sure if it achieved much but it was fun.
The singsong, chanting, the drummers doing their vaguely carnival thing, the condoms, the sound of helicopters and all the fun people combined to make it a great afternoon.
The singsong, chanting, the drummers doing their vaguely carnival thing, the condoms, the sound of helicopters and all the fun people combined to make it a great afternoon.
-
nuperspective
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 3:45 pm
- Location: was: accrington [england]. now: melbourne [australia]
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
the apathetic response to this situation is an international disgrace.
the church sponsored systematic rape and torture of children is still a crime. if this was an underground child sex ring would the ring leaders be arrested and charged? just because they didn't partake doesn't absolve the crime.
the church sponsored genocide in africa is still a crime. did the pope condone the actions of his appointed bishops when they herded children into the hands of the militia to be but under the machete. war crimes trials for the warlords not the church bishops secretly moved to france.
the double standards make me sick and angry. it amazes me that how passive many people are when we see religions behave like this when the fundamentalists are trying to take over and take us all to the brink. the current level of discourse in the US for example should be considered and moral and intellectual state of emergency.
the church sponsored systematic rape and torture of children is still a crime. if this was an underground child sex ring would the ring leaders be arrested and charged? just because they didn't partake doesn't absolve the crime.
the church sponsored genocide in africa is still a crime. did the pope condone the actions of his appointed bishops when they herded children into the hands of the militia to be but under the machete. war crimes trials for the warlords not the church bishops secretly moved to france.
the double standards make me sick and angry. it amazes me that how passive many people are when we see religions behave like this when the fundamentalists are trying to take over and take us all to the brink. the current level of discourse in the US for example should be considered and moral and intellectual state of emergency.
mixes & tracks here:
http://soundcloud.com/thenarcoticcreatures
http://soundcloud.com/thenarcoticcreatures
-
leedsquietman
- Posts: 6659
- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
- Location: greater toronto area
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
yawn 
church sponsored systematic rape ... surprised you didn't put this little nugget of bullshit in a google image, or at least big bold font with red letters. I give you an A for your passion, but a D- for factual correctness...
If you're so bothered, why didn't you get on a fucking plane from Australia and shoot the Pope. Surely it would have been worth it for the martyrdom and notoriety and celebrity you would have drawn to yourself.
church sponsored systematic rape ... surprised you didn't put this little nugget of bullshit in a google image, or at least big bold font with red letters. I give you an A for your passion, but a D- for factual correctness...
If you're so bothered, why didn't you get on a fucking plane from Australia and shoot the Pope. Surely it would have been worth it for the martyrdom and notoriety and celebrity you would have drawn to yourself.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.
Re: Saturday: Come join throwing shoes at the pope.
how terrifically gracious of the Catholic church.leedsquietman wrote:Again, his stance is definitely not universally supported, we have diversity officers, have a full non discriminatory policy including sexual orientation, and have permitted gays and lesbians to come to our high school proms without prejudice and such in the Catholic School Board I worked in.
Now if you'lld just let them get married, officially condone your tolerance, stop making everyone feel guilty and telling them they'll go to hell, and let them become equal priests then they'lld have caught up with society 20 years ago.
A gay pope for 2020!