please help: session view clip automation question

[soundsliketree]

Hi y'all.
I'm confused about session clip automation. Perhaps someone here can help elucidate…

I've created some empty clips in a MIDI instrument track and set the 8 macro controls to different values in each, adding a single breakpoint to each of the controls in the clip envelope section. The idea is to use these clips as "presets" of a sort. I.E. trigger Clip A and all the controls jump to one set of values, trigger Clip B and they jump to another set of values. (I've set these clips to not loop.) When I press them, they work as planned - changing the settings on the macro knobs, and, crucially, the knobs stay at those settings after the "preset" clip has finished playing.

The thing is, when I go to record a new clip in that track - with actual notes - wanting to use that sound I just selected - the knobs jump back to other values.

Can someone explain how this works - or point me to some info about clip envelopes that addresses this?
Thanks!

[soundsliketree]

Allow me to phrase my question differently:

Once a clip with automation has finished playing and the red squares on the macro knobs disappear, are those settings now the active ones until either moved (by a physical knob or in the GUI) or until a new clip with automation is played?

If the answer is YES, then why, when I go to record a new clip in that track, do the knobs jump to different settings when the new clip begins recording? And what settings are they jumping back to?

Thanks, again, for any insight.

Hi y'all.
I'm confused about session clip automation. Perhaps someone here can help elucidate…

I've created some empty clips in a MIDI instrument track and set the 8 macro controls to different values in each, adding a single breakpoint to each of the controls in the clip envelope section. The idea is to use these clips as "presets" of a sort. I.E. trigger Clip A and all the controls jump to one set of values, trigger Clip B and they jump to another set of values. (I've set these clips to not loop.) When I press them, they work as planned - changing the settings on the macro knobs, and, crucially, the knobs stay at those settings after the "preset" clip has finished playing.

The thing is, when I go to record a new clip in that track - with actual notes - wanting to use that sound I just selected - the knobs jump back to other values.

Can someone explain how this works - or point me to some info about clip envelopes that addresses this?
Thanks!

[JoshG567]

It's hard for me to imagine what you're describing. Intuitively it seems like the params should just remain as last set. I can give it a try tomorrow, but lately when I've been using clip automation I've been setting the params for every clip on that track. Like, if I want to turn the filter envelope on for operator on just one clip out of dozens, I have to set it to Off on the dozens of other clips to make sure things don't get messy.

[soundsliketree]

Thanks, Josh.
Yeah - it's hard to describe. I have the same intuition as you - the parameters should just remain where they were last set. But what happens is this: The clip plays and envelopes change the knob settings, then the clip stops playing, the red boxes disappear, and the settings remain where the clip envelopes left them… UNTIL I try to record a new clip in that same track whereupon the knobs jump (back?) to other values. I wish they wouldn't. If they stayed where they were then I could use blank clips with envelopes as "preset" clips. Is that any clearer?

It's hard for me to imagine what you're describing. Intuitively it seems like the params should just remain as last set. I can give it a try tomorrow, but lately when I've been using clip automation I've been setting the params for every clip on that track. Like, if I want to turn the filter envelope on for operator on just one clip out of dozens, I have to set it to Off on the dozens of other clips to make sure things don't get messy.

[JoshG567]

I'm pretty sure I've got you, I'd consider the same intended functionality desirable.

So you click an empty session cell and the default clip has taken settings from somewhere else? If you have the patience maybe try it with a new device in a new set and deliberately vary the automated params while keeping notes of which sound comes from which automation writes, such that when what you're describing happens you can trace it back to its cause? I'm thinking like a scientist here. It's not impossible there's something in the manual that I've missed.

[TomViolenz]

Turn off recording of Automation?

[soundsliketree]

Turn off recording of Automation?

Good thought, but...
The same thing happens whether the record automation button is on or not.

I wish I understood whether this behavior is a bug or intentional. If it is intention, then what values are the knobs jumping back to? Put another way, what is required to have the settings of the knobs be "the real settings of the knobs" and not some temporary setting - especially given that there are no red boxes on any of the knob settings once the clips stop playing.

(Is it just me or is this stuff actually hard to describe?)

[siliconarc]

Shit you're right, this IS hard to explain. On My 5th edit already...

Just tried this here. It took a while to have the sound reverting to a different one from either of the two 'preset' clips i'd made, but i hear it now.
The sound it's reverting to is the (un-automated) Arrange View settings for the device. If those Arrange settings differ from the automated Session clip versions, the device will sound different when starting to record a new clip in Session. Basically, when hitting Session record, the device reverts to its Arrange view settings, as if you'd pressed Back To Arrange button (even though you haven't).

I think i remember this being brought up during the pre-launch Live 9 beta, where it was explained in the forum that it's the intended behaviour/tradeoff for having Session automation. Can't remember the details though. I'd like to hear the answer again, as the original explanation was lost when the old 'Get Satisfaction!' beta forum disappeared. Or maybe it really is a bug and my memory is fubar'd.

[soundsliketree]

Thanks for diving in

A colleague of mine started a thread with Ableton and we received this response today:

The behaviour you are describing is intentional. I understand that the behaviour is inconvenient in this particular use case, but I think taking over the automation setting of the last played clip could cause quite some confusion if that were the default behaviour. Let me explain:
First of all, because of the Session View's non-linear concept. One might not always play the next clip but instead a clip before. Would one expect that this clips plays back the same how it played back initially or that it should take over the value of the last played clip? I imagine that it would confuse many users if a clip above plays back sounding differently than initially.
Another example where such a behaviour would probably cause confusion: a user has several clips recorded, now he wants to automate a parameter for one existing clip, but most likely the other clips should keep their setting otherwise one would change the parameter on the device itself rather than automating it only for one clip.

I understand her reasoning concerning how users might expect it to work, but I actually would prefer it to work where clips without automation DID inherit the settings of the previous clip. I think the ability to have an option in preferences would be, erm, preferable.

Also, it seems to me like it should it least work the way I need in this case: in recording new clips you should be able to be playing a sound and record a clip with it and not have it jump to a totally different sound when the clip starts recording. Just sayin. That is definitely counterintuitive.

Alternatively, there should be SOME graphical indication that the settings of the knobs are not the "real" ones. If not red boxes when the clips stop playing, then... Something??

(On a related note, I think Benni's Automat m4l device has promise for me... But there's a funky thing happening with it: when launch quant is set to none it mysterious selects preset 5 upon clip stop when clip loop is off. I'm in conversation with him about it.)

Shit you're right, this IS hard to explain. On My 5th edit already...

Just tried this here. It took a while to have the sound reverting to a different one from either of the two 'preset' clips i'd made, but i hear it now.
The sound it's reverting to is the (un-automated) Arrange View settings for the device. If those Arrange settings differ from the automated Session clip versions, the device will sound different when starting to record a new clip in Session. Basically, when hitting Session record, the device reverts to its Arrange view settings, as if you'd pressed Back To Arrange button (even though you haven't).

I think i remember this being brought up during the pre-launch Live 9 beta, where it was explained in the forum that it's the intended behaviour/tradeoff for having Session automation. Can't remember the details though. I'd like to hear the answer again, as the original explanation was lost when the old 'Get Satisfaction!' beta forum disappeared. Or maybe it really is a bug and my memory is fubar'd.

[soundsliketree]

I have thought of a workaround involving dummy clips:
Using two tracks, set the "device" track monitor IN, make LOOPING preset clips on this track, then have a second MIDI track to record new clips with this track feeding its MIDI to the device track. This has the advantage of being able to select content with one track and sounds with the other. This means two tracks for every device track, but I think I can live with it.

[siliconarc]

have you tried clyphx? check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGBQw6tn0Rg

[soundsliketree]

have you tried clyphx? check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGBQw6tn0Rg

I was working with clyphx for a little bit, but it proved unstable for me. When I get to a plateau without it I'll explore some more.
For now, I think this dummy clip workaround will work.

[Ubik]

Anything new regarding this? I'm facing the same issue, it is really annoying. I've used the snap action from clyphx and it works really well but in my case it is not a solution because my set relies partly on touchable and the snap action makes touchable unusable... (i suppose it is bugging with the clip's name)

[soundsliketree]

Anything new regarding this? I'm facing the same issue, it is really annoying. I've used the snap action from clyphx and it works really well but in my case it is not a solution because my set relies partly on touchable and the snap action makes touchable unusable... (i suppose it is bugging with the clip's name)

Hey there

Well... yes and no. As you may have seen, I started a new thread asking the question again a few days ago: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=217004

(This thread we're conversing in now is from a year ago. Perhaps you'd care to chime in the above new thread - to combine them?)

Here is what I've learned recently:
• A moderator of this forum, [jur], made a comment on the other thread about how clip "remember their parameter settings." I've been trying to figure out what he means but haven't been successful yet.
• Automat, the Max4Live device by Benni, is now working as designed for me, but, basically, in order to get presets you have to give up the knobs. In other words, with the device active one can trigger different configurations of macro control settings with a single key/MIDI trigger, but... the knobs themselves then become grayed out and I can't do what I really want to do: be able to trigger a preset and THEN further tweak the controls from there with my APC40 knobs.
• After a year or more of struggling to find a solution, I'm still not satisfied. Live's (possibly not a bug) behavior of jumping back to other values upon recording a clip is just plain weird and counterintuitive - and unmusical. When I go to record a new clip I always find myself wanting the instrument to continue sounding just the way it does when I'm playing it... not jump back to another sound right as I begin recording a new clip.

So, there you go. Not much of an update.
Please consider joining the other thread (above) - maybe we can widen the conversation enough so that someone chimes in with a good idea?

[mothergarage]

Maybe my Multimapper32MIDI device does what you want?
You can map various parameters in Live, treat them like the usual macros, save presets as well as an Init preset, which can be recalled by the press of a button. And other useful features.