music should be free!!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:15 pm

Tone Deft wrote:www.washingtonpost.com/content/node/43029

RIAA Bans Telling Friends About Songs
LOS ANGELES—The Recording Industry Association of America announced Tuesday that it will be taking legal action against anyone discovered telling friends, acquaintances, or associates about new songs, artists, or albums. "We are merely exercising our right to defend our intellectual properties from unauthorized peer-to-peer notification of the existence of copyrighted material," a press release signed by RIAA anti-piracy director Brad Buckles read. "We will aggressively prosecute those individuals who attempt to pirate our property by generating 'buzz' about any proprietary music, movies, or software, or enjoy same in the company of anyone other than themselves." RIAA attorneys said they were also looking into the legality of word-of-mouth "favorites-sharing" sites, such as coffee shops, universities, and living rooms.
OMG, thanx Tone, I'm still having a good laugh on that one. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

forge
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Re: !

Post by forge » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Hidden Driveways wrote: Recently I came very close to buying the song "In The Morning" by Junior Boys from iTunes. I stopped myself from doing it. A week or two later I found the two disc CD of the album used for $5. I bought it, but I would have paid three times as much for the vinyl.
this is the big crazy irony of it all - as Neb pointed out - the artist won't get a penny from that, while if you had bought the MP3 then they would have

so is this debate really about the artist's right to income?

Mr Mowgli
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Post by Mr Mowgli » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:38 pm

hmmmm...last fm is cool, it pays royalties per play, but musicians deserve to be payed! :D
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forge
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Post by forge » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:18 am

Aequitas123 wrote:Theres a very good argument against this:

The single most valuable asset to a musician is (or should be) Time.

By selling whatever they can, musicians can pay for rent and food and whatever else, without having to get a job, which would cut seriously into the time they have to create.
see in a way this is the crux of the issue - and sometimes I also think it is a little bit of a fallacy

the only tracks I've had released that actually did make some money, the main ideas of them were actually knocked up with reason on the sly on the work laptops when no one was looking

I have conversely had times where I've had no job and all the time in the world to make music and I've sat there scratching my head wondering what the hell to do


I think it is totally possible to come up with great art while having a job as well - in fact sometimes I think it's even essential to have some kind of extra input stimulus from outside your artistic universe for inspiration

a friend of mine who I respect deeply is just starting to do well and all of his music and DJing was done with a full time job - admittedly he has no kids and I think that would have made it a lot harder (speaking as a parent)

as far as I can tell most of his music income is from DJing and remixes, and he hasn't quit his day job yet

so anyway, the point is - is it really essential to earn your living only from your music, and if it is, are there ways you can earn money from other areas, such as merchandise, gigs, special editions....etc

I watched Michel Gondry's latest film the other day with Jack black in it - 'be kind rewind' and in it there was a really nice analogy to fats waller and the "rent parties" of the 1920s and 1930s where people who had no money for rent would invite some musicians over and loads of people and they could donate whatever they can afford towards the rent

We're all feeling affronted because we grew up in the age of the rock superstar and so we're all gutted that it doesn't look like we'll get a shot at that - but do you think fats waller would have had this conversation?

lola
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Post by lola » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:02 am

Mike Goodwin wrote:
lola wrote:I still love vinyl, and love to collect it, i never bought a mp3, and never will buy a mp3.
So what do you do when music you love is only out in that format? Do you strongly feel that the artists that you love do not deserve your support?
All music i love, has been released on vinyl, most of the time i don't buy new stuff anyway, or it has to be really something special, but then again no mp3's for me.

I rather pay something more to have a nice artwork sleeve, a physical something that you actually own, something that is yours.
Like i said before, MP3 is a empty medium, bits, hanging on your drive.

BTW why would an artist release on mp3 anyway?.. i don't get it, you want to give the person who pays for your shit something extra IMO, it is a bit cheap to release in mp3. and besides that a waste of time and effort considering your mixing, mastering, and production.

For me a mp3 release, is no release

But that's just my opinion.

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:12 am

The music industry is just another business, music just another commodity. Create something somebody wants, understand and implement a modern business and marketing model, and you'll make money. Maybe even make a living.

Or treat music as a hobby.

Or play the whining 'struggling artist' card. And, to quote Knotkranky, "The more you suck, the more you struggle."

dcease
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Post by dcease » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:54 am

i'll take my "shitty" mp3, and be thankful that i don't have to purchase my favorite albums 5 times due to theft or damage. and yes, i buy my music, download and cd. i listen to at least 8 hours of music a day at work. that would equate to 40-48 cd's i would have to dick around with, if i didn't want to hear the same song more than once in a week. logistically, my ipod makes sense for me, i don't sit about at the house all day. it allows me to carry hundreds of cd's with me, and decide how/what/when i listen to.

also, i listen to music. that is tangible to me. sure, i appreciate nice artwork or whatnot, but it's not what i am after. and if someone (artist) wants to give it to me for free download, hey! cool. i usually always hit up myspace and youtube before i buy anything anymore, whether download or cd. so if you the artist want all the monies, sell me your music directly, and allow me to check it out first. i pay for what i like to listen to. i also pay for the food i like to eat, and the clothes i like to wear, and the movies i like to watch, and the software i like to use. sorry if that makes me a bad person.

save your "what about the artists' artistic interpretation" for someone else, i don't go to church because i don't need someone else's interpretation of the bible shoved down my throat. if i want to read it, it will be at my pace, and my discretion, and i will draw my own conclusions from it, thank you very fucking much.

ymmv.

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:58 am

Scarce goods

A way to allocate those goods

supply and demand
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forge
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Post by forge » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:12 am

hambone1 wrote: And, to quote Knotkranky, "The more you suck, the more you struggle."
:lol: :lol:

there really is a lot of truth in that

I just think the answer is to say fuck to earning money from it and do it anyway - build up a catalogue, be prolific, get better, learn how to not suck and get to the point where you're popular enough for there to be a significant number of people out there who will pay

I think you'll find it easier to spread the word by letting it be free, and have a donate button on your website

the other thing that gets frequently ignored in these debates, is really I think you should have a right to try before you buy.

My first paid gig as a musician was busking - people paid me if they felt I deserved it. if I'd had CDs to sell as well then I might have sold some too, but only because they'd already had a chance to listen

just do it anyway and be a bit inventive in how to make the money

Hidden Driveways
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Re: !

Post by Hidden Driveways » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:58 am

forge wrote:
Hidden Driveways wrote: Recently I came very close to buying the song "In The Morning" by Junior Boys from iTunes. I stopped myself from doing it. A week or two later I found the two disc CD of the album used for $5. I bought it, but I would have paid three times as much for the vinyl.
this is the big crazy irony of it all - as Neb pointed out - the artist won't get a penny from that, while if you had bought the MP3 then they would have

so is this debate really about the artist's right to income?
So... making a physical object that has a resale value is bad? You're not a fan if you buy a used CD or record? We all should be buying iTunes songs that have absolutely no resale value at all?

There is no irony here.

forge
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Re: !

Post by forge » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:21 am

Hidden Driveways wrote:
forge wrote:
Hidden Driveways wrote: Recently I came very close to buying the song "In The Morning" by Junior Boys from iTunes. I stopped myself from doing it. A week or two later I found the two disc CD of the album used for $5. I bought it, but I would have paid three times as much for the vinyl.
this is the big crazy irony of it all - as Neb pointed out - the artist won't get a penny from that, while if you had bought the MP3 then they would have

so is this debate really about the artist's right to income?
So... making a physical object that has a resale value is bad? You're not a fan if you buy a used CD or record? We all should be buying iTunes songs that have absolutely no resale value at all?

There is no irony here.
I didn't say it was bad - I said it was ironic

the context in which you and tone both mentioned it suggested that you feel better about buying CDs, even though they are used and the artist will get no money for that transaction

I have fallen to the same logic myself - I wanted a Tom Waits album and really didn't want to download it from torrents etc, so I started looking on the catalogue of the local library to see if they had a copy, then I suddenly realised my intention was to go to the library, borrow the CD then make a copy!

Thing is - say I just kept borrowing it from the library - the library paid for it once, then that is the end of it - no more money to anyone at all

I grew up making tape copies of albums - then CDs came along and all that changed is the way they got copied - but I also bought CDs

The problem is the record companies/RIAA etc dragged their heels so long on this that they have really screwed themselves - they should have got in with internet sales right at the beginning so that by now people were so used to that model that there was never a question of it, but they didn't - they spent so long trying to fight it, all they did was allow the illegal systems to get so widespread that it's virtually too late

but saying that, clearly plenty of people still buy downloads, I just think those figures would be a lot higher if they jumped on it right at the start

Mike Goodwin
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Post by Mike Goodwin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:51 am

lola wrote:
Mike Goodwin wrote:
lola wrote:I still love vinyl, and love to collect it, i never bought a mp3, and never will buy a mp3.
So what do you do when music you love is only out in that format? Do you strongly feel that the artists that you love do not deserve your support?
All music i love, has been released on vinyl, most of the time i don't buy new stuff anyway, or it has to be really something special, but then again no mp3's for me.

I rather pay something more to have a nice artwork sleeve, a physical something that you actually own, something that is yours.
Like i said before, MP3 is a empty medium, bits, hanging on your drive.

BTW why would an artist release on mp3 anyway?.. i don't get it, you want to give the person who pays for your shit something extra IMO, it is a bit cheap to release in mp3. and besides that a waste of time and effort considering your mixing, mastering, and production.

For me a mp3 release, is no release

But that's just my opinion.
Ok fair enough when it comes to an mp3. Do you feel the same way about buying a good quality wav. or aiff file?

lola
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Post by lola » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:00 pm

Mike Goodwin wrote:
lola wrote:
Mike Goodwin wrote: So what do you do when music you love is only out in that format? Do you strongly feel that the artists that you love do not deserve your support?
All music i love, has been released on vinyl, most of the time i don't buy new stuff anyway, or it has to be really something special, but then again no mp3's for me.

I rather pay something more to have a nice artwork sleeve, a physical something that you actually own, something that is yours.
Like i said before, MP3 is a empty medium, bits, hanging on your drive.

BTW why would an artist release on mp3 anyway?.. i don't get it, you want to give the person who pays for your shit something extra IMO, it is a bit cheap to release in mp3. and besides that a waste of time and effort considering your mixing, mastering, and production.

For me a mp3 release, is no release

But that's just my opinion.
Ok fair enough when it comes to an mp3. Do you feel the same way about buying a good quality wav. or aiff file?
It is still no vinyl, if i want a wav ill record one from vinyl :lol: , but if the music would really be something special , i could consider it to buy, but a wav is still not physical.

zappen
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Post by zappen » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:40 pm

it's phisical! on your hard disk! and is much similiar to the content of a CD!
infact you can cut it, effect it, remix it, as any other phisical music format.

you'd feel it more phisical if it was sold on a usb key?

lola
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Post by lola » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:45 pm

zappen wrote:it's phisical! on your hard disk! and is much similiar to the content of a CD!
infact you can cut it, effect it, remix it, as any other phisical music format
Can you touch it?, does it smill like vinyl? can you watch it's groove, does it have a carton sleeve with artwork, does it have vinyl distortion and compression, :?:

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