music should be free!!!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:25 pm

Oh also, I'd argue that buying used is as much "stealing" as is torrenting. I don't know how it's legal, since the purchase of a CD is a license to enjoy the music, and as far as I know, that license is not transferable. The artist never makes a dime off used CDs.
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Hidden Driveways
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Post by Hidden Driveways » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:29 pm

lola wrote:I still love vinyl, and love to collect it, i never bought a mp3, and never will buy a mp3.
Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying I never will buy an MP3, but, I have yet to buy one. To me it's about as exciting as spending money on a JPEG.

Recently I came very close to buying the song "In The Morning" by Junior Boys from iTunes. I stopped myself from doing it. A week or two later I found the two disc CD of the album used for $5. I bought it, but I would have paid three times as much for the vinyl.

I think that Robert Henke made some very valid points, but it seems like the writing is on the wall for compact discs. People here in NYC are just jettisoning their CD collections like mad. I've bought more used CDs in the last six months then I have bought new CDs in the last six years. It's an awesome time to be building up your CD collection!

One point I would like to make in favor of CDs. In the studio when you A/B your mix against a commercial release (for example - when using a Presonus Central Station), CDs are the best format to have. Testing your mix against vinyl seems like it wouldn't be very wise. Testing your mix against an MP3 that Nebulae stole off the Internet could land you in prison, and testing a mix against a song on a hard drive is too much work.
Last edited by Hidden Driveways on Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

morerecords
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Post by morerecords » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:31 pm

My $.02:
I don't know what the hell to do. I don't buy or have never bought mp3s, and do not play them or CDs when I DJ. The idea of DJing with CDs is pretty attractive espiecally since I am getting older and my back is fucked up and half the time I walk with a cane. Records are heavy.

I do run two unsuccesful vinyl labels currently. For me, it is not a proper release until it makes it onto vinyl, for underground dance music I mean.

I don't do mp3 sales, and I am pretty uncomforatble with giving up a large portion of my sales to beatport or whoever, because I like INDEPENDENT labels and underground record culture, there's an interity to the DIY stuff that I feel is compromised when you get with a major label, which is kind of what beatport etc is...

OMAR S recently got down with beatport, so I guess even the most die hard indie dance guys are moving into that territory.,.. I guess I will follow soon enough.

Here's my situation. It's a good thing this thread popped up and I can share a little, because today is sucha hopeless day for me, and I don't even feel like working on music, Record sales suck, I am lucky to sell 800 copies of a relase at this time,. If I were to stop making vinyl dance records, to move towards MP#3s, that would be so little fun for me, I am quite sure I would move on. But that's not what I love doing: what I love is making vinyl records. I can't pay my bills anymore though, I am 33 and I haven;'t had a day job in many years. The last thing I did was work in record stores. I guess I can throw in the towel, stop scraping by, stop selling vinyl, get a job and some financial stability, I would likely do a diffeent kind of music and lament the dance culture for a while. But who would hire me? I have ZERO job experience.

Fuck it, I guess I am commited, I am even feeling less hopeless just after writing all this BS, in the end, it's a tough era/ transitional era for a musician, but you have to just plug away and get the music done, the rest will work itsel;f out along the way, even if that means something bad, either way at least you can depend on something happening.

abort
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Post by abort » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:32 pm

nathannn wrote:why do i start topics when im drinking?
just ignore this..
Even when I'm drunk Would not say THIS. Come man, make a GOOD album takes fucking hard work...even if it were all done with a mouse hand. To come up with idea's that don't suck, to GO BACK and fix shit even after your creativity has left you to rework large parts...to sit there for hours learning complex sound and music tactics. only to what get big enough to not make money. If I were good enough which I'm NOT yet, I hope to fucking god you would pay for my CD.

Besides ..I don't have a record player, for good fucking reason ..I'm not a DJ.

I'm sorry for this outlet response, its just frustrating enough right now for me as it is. I might have took this the wrong way.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:34 pm

^ why not use mp3s as promos to sell the vinyl?
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lola
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Post by lola » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:38 pm

Personally think that the emotional value of music in general has vanished cause the mp3, the greediness by the user, the freedom to get it, .....download....listen...skip.....next.
So i think music is already free for a lot of people and they don't feel the emotional value of it anymore.
They think" why pay for it anyway if i can get it for free"... they rather like to spend money on other things as on music.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:43 pm

morerecords - good story.

Hidden Driveways wrote:Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying I never will buy an MP3, but, I have yet to buy one. To me it's about as exciting as spending money on a JPEG.
LOL @ buying a jpeg! I know exactly how you feel.
Recently I came very close to buying the song "In The Morning" by Junior Boys from iTunes. I stopped myself from doing it. A week or two later I found the two disc CD of the album used for $5. I bought it, but I would have paid three times as much for the vinyl.
for me it's the wife, she wants certain singles for her mp3 player when she runs. she doesn't care about albums, she wants singles, just the hits for motivation. I almost bought some mp3s for her, I ended up buying CDs for her.
the writing is on the wall for compact discs.
vinyl and CD will always be around in some capacity. cassettes are screwed. :P
People here in NYC are just jettisoning their CD collections like mad. I've bought more used CDs in the last six months then I have bought new CDs in the last six years. It's an awesome time to be building up your CD collection!
omfg great point!! so I HAVE TO go CD shopping, YAY!!
lola wrote:they rather like to spend money on other things as on music.
or when the ringtone of a song costs more than the mp3!!!! music as an accessory.

lola
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Post by lola » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:44 pm

nebulae wrote:^ why not use mp3s as promos to sell the vinyl?
Lots of peeps don't buy vinyl because it won't fit on their mp3 DJ decks 8O
Friends of mine still buy vinyl, are oldskool dj's, they get laughed at because they carry vinyl, these days lots of kids download like 20 gig of illegal mp3 stuff call themselfs dj's and get the gigs, they are cheaper to book.

Anyway, vinyl has become a medium for the real collector.
I still press vinyl, not a huge amount tho.

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Post by heavensdaw » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:47 pm

It might be 'almost' free for the consumer, but it certainly isn't free for the artist..:?

Hd

nathannn
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Re: music should be free!!!

Post by nathannn » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:57 pm

Robert Henke wrote:
nathannn wrote: vinyl is the only format worth paying for.

You are not paying for a format, you pay for the effort to create and to provide that creation to an audience.

Did it ever appear to you that there are different types of music demanding different formats? Ever heard about music that does not fit on a 12" ?

Music that is not a seven minute dance track?

Music that has more than two channels of audio?

Ever heard about music that cannot be performed? And I am not talking aobut pressing play on a computer, I talk about performance?

Music that comes from brilliant composers who simply do not want to perform because they do not feel comfortable to do so?

Music that cannot performed because there is a lack of locations / audience even if it is brilliant music?


Ever seen releases of this kind of music (and other) where someone took care and craftsmanship into a really nice and cool package of the format that the music works best on?




Rob.
when i choose to buy vinyl over cd i am paying for the format and the effort to create it. for me "the consumer" cd became a cheap piece of disposable plastic the day everyone was given cd burners with there computers. it no longer has the "cool" effect because everyone can make it now. when an artist releases something on cd even though they spend alot of time on production i still see it as a pile of plastic that i feel no connection to because the physical format takes little effort to make.


artist should start exploring dvd audio if they are worried about it not fitting on vinyl, maybe if more people took the time to tap into surround sound more people would start buying again..
the reason why i feel music in surround would sell is because not everyone has the equipment to make a surround album. the last cd i bought came with a dvd
with the music in surround. the only reason i bought it was for the dvd , i felt like i was actually buying something of value.
they could release it on vinyl for collectors, release it in mp3 or flac to give people a sampling of the music, and then on dvd for audiophiles..cd is really a dead format.


so let me sum it up

vinyl - for collectors
dvd audio - for audiophiles
mp3 and flac - should always be free and released to gain a larger audience
cd- just as a free bussiness card to pass out to friends or people at shows.

but as an artist you should never expect anyone to buy anything. just be happy that they like your music. if they end up going to your shows then great.. i actually seen you play live at demf 2007 because you released music for free on your website (although it was only a few tracks and i did not see anything on vinyl at the time).. if you would not have done that i would have never heard your music nor went to see you play.
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knotkranky
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Re: music should be free!!!

Post by knotkranky » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:04 pm

nathannn wrote:
Robert Henke wrote:
nathannn wrote: vinyl is the only format worth paying for.

You are not paying for a format, you pay for the effort to create and to provide that creation to an audience.

Did it ever appear to you that there are different types of music demanding different formats? Ever heard about music that does not fit on a 12" ?

Music that is not a seven minute dance track?

Music that has more than two channels of audio?

Ever heard about music that cannot be performed? And I am not talking aobut pressing play on a computer, I talk about performance?

Music that comes from brilliant composers who simply do not want to perform because they do not feel comfortable to do so?

Music that cannot performed because there is a lack of locations / audience even if it is brilliant music?


Ever seen releases of this kind of music (and other) where someone took care and craftsmanship into a really nice and cool package of the format that the music works best on?




Rob.
when i choose to buy vinyl over cd i am paying for the format and the effort to create it. for me "the consumer" cd became a cheap piece of disposable plastic the day everyone was given cd burners with there computers. it no longer has the "cool" effect because everyone can make it now. when an artist releases something on cd even though they spend alot of time on production i still see it as a pile of plastic that i feel no connection to because the physical format takes little effort to make.


artist should start exploring dvd audio if they are worried about it not fitting on vinyl, maybe if more people took the time to tap into surround sound more people would start buying again..
the reason why i feel music in surround would sell is because not everyone has the equipment to make a surround album. the last cd i bought came with a dvd
with the music in surround. the only reason i bought it was for the dvd , i felt like i was actually buying something of value.
they could release it on vinyl for collectors, release it in mp3 or flac to give people a sampling of the music, and then on dvd for audiophiles..cd is really a dead format.


so let me sum it up

vinyl - for collectors
dvd audio - for audiophiles
mp3 and flac - should always be free and released to gain a larger audience
cd- just as a free bussiness card to pass out to friends or people at shows.

but as an artist you should never expect anyone to buy anything. just be happy that they like your music. if they end up going to your shows then great.. i actually seen you play live at demf 2007 because you released music for free on your website (although it was only a few tracks and i did not see anything on vinyl at the time).. if you would not have done that i would have never heard your music nor went to see you play.

Dude, there isn't a thing wrong with CD's. I don't get your beef. Anyway, I rather hear a great artist
on mp3 than a mediocre artist on vinyl or better. Audiophile shit music simply stinks more.

What we really need are the "quality music police" and I think we may have to pull you over first. :wink:

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:44 pm

www.washingtonpost.com/content/node/43029

RIAA Bans Telling Friends About Songs
LOS ANGELES—The Recording Industry Association of America announced Tuesday that it will be taking legal action against anyone discovered telling friends, acquaintances, or associates about new songs, artists, or albums. "We are merely exercising our right to defend our intellectual properties from unauthorized peer-to-peer notification of the existence of copyrighted material," a press release signed by RIAA anti-piracy director Brad Buckles read. "We will aggressively prosecute those individuals who attempt to pirate our property by generating 'buzz' about any proprietary music, movies, or software, or enjoy same in the company of anyone other than themselves." RIAA attorneys said they were also looking into the legality of word-of-mouth "favorites-sharing" sites, such as coffee shops, universities, and living rooms.

nebulae
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Post by nebulae » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:45 pm

:lol:

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Mike Goodwin
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Post by Mike Goodwin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:48 pm

Patch wrote: Don't forget - an "artist" is someone that does what they do for the love of it, not for the money/fame/notoriety that it generates.
Do "artist's" eat :?:

Mike Goodwin
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Post by Mike Goodwin » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:52 pm

lola wrote:I still love vinyl, and love to collect it, i never bought a mp3, and never will buy a mp3.
So what do you do when music you love is only out in that format? Do you strongly feel that the artists that you love do not deserve your support?

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