Sending MIDI to my MIDI Guitar?? How??

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
rbro
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Post by rbro » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:49 pm

OK, I'm an idiot. :oops: Actually you should be able to get your Guitar Hero guitar to send MIDI and use that instead.....

rbro
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Post by rbro » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:09 pm

There are gerbils on the inside of that piano. I don't know if you can purchase guitar sized gerbils though.....

Pickle Sprocket
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Post by Pickle Sprocket » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:14 pm

rbro wrote:There are gerbils on the inside of that piano. I don't know if you can purchase guitar sized gerbils though.....
That is such a ridiculous statement, I do not understand why you continue to try and post false information in my thread. Perhaps they are poor attempts at humor, I don't know, but I assure you noboby wants to hear it.

Not even the most skilled animal trainer could get gerbils to move in any sensical manner inside a piano, let alone train them to play Mozart. That is the work of a highly technical MIDI player module, similar to what I am trying to get set up on my MIDI guitar with Ableton Live.

I have sent an e-mail to Ableton Live support asking for a chart which specifies which MIDI channels need to be used to send MIDI information from the MIDI clips in Ableton Live to my MIDI guitar, I await response. Or perhaps one of the helpful Ableton Live forum moderators would be gracious enough to post the answer in my thread, here.

Thank you.
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Lo-Fi Massahkah
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Post by Lo-Fi Massahkah » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:16 pm

Also make sure that Live sends 14 bit midi data to your guitar or you'll experience severe stepping in the timbre of each string.

.m

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:20 pm

Pickle Sprocket wrote:That is such a ridiculous statement, I do not understand why you continue to try and post false information in my thread. Perhaps they are poor attempts at humor, I don't know, but I assure you noboby wants to hear it.
no shit.



maybe your battery is dead? what string gauge are you using? maybe it's too heavy and the pickup can't drive it (assume they're wired correctly.)

which midi guitar converter are you using? is it 14 bit compatible?


this is strange, they're usually plug and play.
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Pickle Sprocket
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Post by Pickle Sprocket » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:27 pm

Lo-Fi Massahkah wrote:Also make sure that Live sends 14 bit midi data to your guitar or you'll experience severe stepping in the timbre of each string.

.m
Thank you Mr. Low-Fidelity Massacre, could you please expound on that? I have instantiated a bit reducer plug-in effect on each of the 6 new MIDI channels I created to send to each of the strings, and I have appropriately adjusted their settings down to 14 bit, but I still can't get the MIDI to operate on my guitar. Do I also have to change the bit setting in Ableton Live's preferences? I only see options for 16, 24, and 32, and these seem to pertain to the Audio portion, and not the MIDI portion.

Should I be using a higher quality Bit Reducer plug-in than the one that comes with Ableton Live 7 Suite Edition? Perhaps a Waves version? I would like to assume that the tools that come with Ableton Live would be most suitable, though.
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Pickle Sprocket
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Post by Pickle Sprocket » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:37 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
Pickle Sprocket wrote:That is such a ridiculous statement, I do not understand why you continue to try and post false information in my thread. Perhaps they are poor attempts at humor, I don't know, but I assure you noboby wants to hear it.
no shit.
I agree with you on that statement.
Tone Deft wrote:maybe your battery is dead?
I don't think so, though I will try replacing my laptop battery later on today. The computer does power up, so I would deduce that if the laptop is on, the battery is dead.
Tone Deft wrote:what string gauge are you using? maybe it's too heavy and the pickup can't drive it (assume they're wired correctly.)
Gosh, this may be another issue. The gauge's I am using are as follows:

8-16-24-32-40-48

I thought that using string gauge's that were all divisible by 8 would create the most even tone across the audio spectrum, as has been suggested by the guitar magazines that I read. Is this creating an issue with the 14 bit MIDI requirement? What gauges of strings need to be used? Does Ableton or Gibson have suggestions for which guitar strings to use with Ableton Live MIDI clips?
Tone Deft wrote:which midi guitar converter are you using? is it 14 bit compatible?
I am using the Terratec AXON AX50 USB to MIDI guitar converter. This makes me wonder if we don't need to investigate the USB connections and cables as a possible problem. Any suggestions where to start? Should the USB connector light up when plugged in? Does the USB connector also have Sweet and Bitter ends?

Tone Deft wrote:this is strange, they're usually plug and play.
Hahaha, well, I can plug it and I can play it, but it just won't work the other way around!
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Lo-Fi Massahkah
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Post by Lo-Fi Massahkah » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:41 pm

Live is most capable for doing this. Let me just clarify a few things:

* The Redux plug is for audio output - now we're talking midi data.
* Audio prefs is for the soundfiles that you'll eventually be recording. I'm assuming you'll be using your guitar in a live setting, though. Seeing as you want to use the midi out function. So don't bother with these settings.
* Stay away from Waves - they are notoriously known for bad midi guitar support.

This is the way to go:

* In midi prefs - make sure to set your midi interface (the one from your guitar) to both Remote & Track... and to sync if you want tempo synced vibrato effects.
* Press ctrl/cmd+m to get into midi mapping mode
* Play one (only one!) of the strings on your guitar to make it send a midi control signal to Live.
* In your lower left corner you'll se a box stating what control message is being mapped together with "Aboslute" or "Relative" and a bunch of other parameters. Make sure it says "Absolute 14bit"
* Repeat for all six strings and the bend arm if you have one.
* Press ctrl/cmd+m again to get out of midi mapping.
* Now your guitar is mapped to Live's internal midi mapping system with the highest possible resolution and you're set to play or even graphically edit midi clips with all possible parameters.

.m

thesmallisbeautiful
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Post by thesmallisbeautiful » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:23 pm

Are you guys telling him that Live can send midi data back to his guitar and have it play the notes specified in the midi data on the physical strings which then get picked up by the normal guitar pickups and sent out to an amp or something?

It really seems like that's what he's trying to do.

Am I nuts here? I'm pretty sure you can't do that without some kind of very complicated machine like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjONQNUU8Fg.

Pickle Sprocket
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Post by Pickle Sprocket » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:28 pm

thesmallisbeautiful wrote:Are you guys telling him that Live can send midi data back to his guitar and have it play the notes specified in the midi data on the physical strings which then get picked up by the normal guitar pickups and sent out to an amp or something?

It really seems like that's what he's trying to do.

Am I nuts here? I'm pretty sure you can't do that without some kind of very complicated machine like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjONQNUU8Fg.
Yes, that is exactly what I am attempting to get set up, but as i have clearly stated, I am trying to get my MIDI guitar set up, not a robot playing a saxophone, these are very different things.

I believe you are not nuts, but perhaps just not very educated, that would seem to make more sense.

Clearly, the point of a MIDI guitar is to use it with MIDI, by sending MIDI information from the guitar to a computer, and sending MIDI back to the guitar from the computer so that you can have realistic guitar playing back through an amp allowing one to play along with other instruments. I have already set up my grand piano to do this, and now I am trying to get my brand new MIDI guitar to do this as well, so I can then move on to playing drums and percussion with my other instruments.

I like the video of the robot playing the saxophone, but it really isn't helpful to this thread, perhaps you would like to make another thread discussing interesting machinery that enjoys playing music.

Thank you.
I taste nice.

thesmallisbeautiful
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Post by thesmallisbeautiful » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:32 pm

ok, well there are about 15 youtube links to homemade saxophone robots. The midi guitar is a commercially available product, so there should be at least one video up there of someone doing what you say is possible. I haven't found one.

It may be that I am not uneducated, but that you don't understand the basic laws of physics.

Lo-Fi Massahkah
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Post by Lo-Fi Massahkah » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:37 pm

thesmallisbeautiful wrote:It may be that I am not uneducated, but that you don't understand the basic laws of physics.
Midi out from Live to the guitar pic-ups/resonators draws the strings into a magnetic field and makes them vibrate. Youtube or not - that's the physics of it.

.m

thesmallisbeautiful
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Post by thesmallisbeautiful » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:39 pm

ok, fair enough, sort of like an ebow, but how does the pickup fret the strings to play the right notes?

Pickle Sprocket
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Post by Pickle Sprocket » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:41 pm

thesmallisbeautiful wrote:ok, well there are about 15 youtube links to homemade saxophone robots.
I appreciate that bit of trivia, but I do not really want to be discussing saxophone playing robots in my MIDI guitar thread. I would like to discuss MIDI guitars being played by MIDI clips in Ableton Live.

I have been reading many interesting and intellectual posts by the forum character titled Robert Henke, he seems to have vast knowledge about MIDI things and computers, perhaps it would be advisable for me to send him a personal message and ask for his help? Does anybody have his phone number as that would be a quicker way of getting in touch with him?

Thank you.

P.S. UPDATE
I have changed the battery in my laptop, but that has not had any positive effects in regards to sending MIDI to my MIDI guitar from Ableton Live, though the screen is noticeably brighter, which I take to be a good thing.

I am now going through Loaf-i Massassakhua's instructions about changing the MIDI to 14 bits, I will report back with how that has effected the situation.

Hopefully I will have success before I go to sleep tonight! I would like to hear my guitar playing some Bach by itself while I am brushing my teeth! So exciting! Thanks for everyone's help so far.
I taste nice.

3phase
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Re: This is in regards to the different MIDI channels to be

Post by 3phase » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:42 pm

Pickle Sprocket wrote:
3phase wrote:just in case you are not all complete honks..

midiguitars usually send on 6 channels... a situation live cant handle properly as far as i know... you need to record the guitar midi on 6 tracks that are set to the individual channels
Wow, thanks for that tip, I completely did not think of that, I was sending only 1 MIDI channel to the guitar. I will try and separate all of my MIDI clips into 6 different channels to send to each of the strings. Could you explain further and tell me which MIDI channel should be going to each string? Is there a standard protocol for that? Is the low E string always designated to Channel 3 or something? Perhaps I have to enable Sync in Ableton Live to go to the guitar?

usually they just go from 1-6 as default..you can check with a propper modi sequencer by watching the list editor while playing the strings...

i dont know why but the highest string is often seen as the first..equals midi channel 1...


do some experiments ...

in he end of the day midi guitars are pretty useless because they are to slow...

the classical way of playing synths with a guitar is the analog way...

haveing 6 monophon sythns.. minimoogs or an oberheim six voice and having an analog pitch to cv interface...

of cause this is possible to emulate with digital synths like the nord modular..which is pretty good for guitar, reaktor or max dsp...

or..anything that is capabel of fast pitchtracking wich is usually faster than the miditransmission itself

My gosh, so many variables, I wish they had included this in the Ableton Live manual.
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