why BUY Live?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Chris J
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why BUY Live?

Post by Chris J » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:42 pm

We've all used cracked softwares at some point, and probably many people here used a cracked version of Live.
sometime ago to motivate dirty users I would have said, if you buy a software, you make the company able to carry on developping the software and you get technical support, in whatever order.

Now I've been lead on for a year with polite answers which could be crudely translated into: "we don't care about your bug because you're the only one who complains about it so we'll try to keep you quiet for as long as possible, while we'll be working on other things, like the new version of live, which may or may not have the same bug. Then when you get angry, we'll get susceptible, therefore avoiding providing a solution. And as a plus we'll ask you not to spam our forum with questions we've answered you about, however unconvincing our answers were"

So what IS the point of buying Ableton's product?
I don't get the support of a bug fix (12 releases since I reported the bug), and the money I thought was used to develop, is used to employ people who are just buffers, cool and polite people who have absolutely no power on the developpers.

If I was Ableton and respected customers I would get rid of the people whose job is to answer one out of 3 emails with useless answers (yes Michael telling me for almost a year it will be fixed asap didn't help me AT ALL), and hire a programmer instead.
Sorry for the guys in question, I'm sure you like your job, pretty cool, but it's not very useful for the development of the product.

the bottom line is I bought Live several times, and I don't get a better treatment than people who use the cracked version.

Draw your own conclusions
Quad 6600 Intel, AsusP5Q, 2Gb ram, XP sp3, Evolution MK361c & UC33e, Line6 UX8

shhhhh
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Post by shhhhh » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:58 pm

Maybe it's because some people use cracked versions that Ableton has not been able to upgrade the buffer employee to "Developer".
Or that they couldn't hire the guy who's job is to go from the buffer's desk to the developer's one.
Or maybe they need better task assignments. But that's got nothing to do with money then.

kleine
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Post by kleine » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:02 pm

Hello Chris J,

We care about all software bugs - but sometimes some bugs take longer to fix than others for many different reasons. I suffered from the same bug too when working in overdub mode.

We respect and honor that you reported this bug and we apologize that it´s still not
fixed in v.7.0.12.
You can be assured that (also thanks to your reports) this bug will be fixed. Better sooner than later, i agree.

The reason for buying/using legal software is (mainly) to support the developers and the company. So, Thank you! for using Ableton Live and sorry that the bug you had reported is still not fixed.

Best,
Christian

ewistrand
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Re: why BUY Live?

Post by ewistrand » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:12 pm

Chris J wrote:We've all used cracked softwares at some point
Wrong; I never have. All the music on my machine's legal as well.
I don't get the support of a bug fix (12 releases since I reported the bug), and the money I thought was used to develop, is used to employ people who are just buffers, cool and polite people who have absolutely no power on the developpers.
As Christian said, some bugs are harder to fix than others. There's so many variables nowdays due to machine config, other software installed, etc. If a bug isn't affecting everybody, it first has to be reproduced (and this one is, from the sounds of it). Then, it has to be dealt with in a way that doesn't destroy other functionality of the program. A lot of bugs come from cumulative code changes, and hence removing it might affect everything done with the app after that point in time.

ew

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:33 pm

"why buy it?"

It's a similar question to "why recycle?" The earth is fucked and covered with nasty people and their rubbish, so why should I invest my time and effort sorting out my plastics?
Why recycle when my high street is not spotlessly clean?

Equally - why buy Live if it is not perfect?

Firstly, on a general point: because a purchase is a vote for that item as your preferred way of doing something. By voting on individual items you adjust the whole world to be slightly more as you would like it. Effectively acting with others as a large unmediated group we alter the concensus. Large amounts of purchases influence other producers to produce similar products and thereby a social or operational shift is made.

EG: I did not like the way that Cubase made me make music, and I preferred the way that Live made me make music. I liked it enough to buy it. I consider this my vote and I hope that my vote (in concert with others) influences other music software producers to adjust their software to address the expressed market need/demand.

Secondly : on the issue of "my bug is not fixed"
I'm not sure how not paying or paying has any impact on the actual bug fixing. Your implication is that they do not want to fix it? Seems doubtful. My guess is that they want to fix your bug, but have not been able to so far. Of course you could say - " I paid my money and I demand satisfaction, right now" - but in the real world wants are not always met. And when they are not met it is not from malice, it is from unavoidable complexity .

The implication that not paying would produce a better or comparable outcome to paying seems wrong.

I cannot think of a process where you not paying would spur the relevant department on to fix a problem any faster. That is if you assume that Ableton are trying to fix your problem

Some users seem to think that Ableton do not want to fix their problems. Frankly that baffles me. Why on earth would they not want to fix problems? The more fixed the app is, the better their life is, surely.

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:35 pm

ewistrand,
Bullshit, you're defending people who don't worry, can defend themselves pretty well.
They're curing the bug because I'm making a fuss HERE NOW.
I've just been told they've identified it and I would need better arguments than what you're saying to believe they had looked into it before today.

This bug was reported in Dec 07, acknowledged by the developpers in February08, but looked into on the 1st of december 08.

Should have posted here months ago but I thought I was adressing honest people. They've pushed me over the edge by just saying they were going to fix it for months (tired of repeating that fact, but that's the truth) and now these so-called support guys tell me to calm down, if you'd LOOK into this bug a year ago, that wouldn't have happened.
Quad 6600 Intel, AsusP5Q, 2Gb ram, XP sp3, Evolution MK361c & UC33e, Line6 UX8

dysanfel
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Re: why BUY Live?

Post by dysanfel » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:45 pm

Chris J wrote: So what IS the point of buying Ableton's product?
Because the cracked version for Mac is vaporware and the cracked version for the PC only sort of works.
Gig Rig - rMBP 2.3GHZ i7, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD, OSX 10.11.x, Presonus FS, Live 9.x
Home Rig - i7-6700k Hackintosh 32GB DDR4, 2nd Generation Scarlet 18i20, ADA8000, JoeMeek SixQ, Live 9.x

Chris J
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Post by Chris J » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:01 pm

Angstrom,
Yes they got my vote too against Cubase.

Why they wouldn't want to fix a bug ?
it's not they don't want to, they're making commercial decisions that have consequences, one of them is not taking the time to fix bugs.
And because I'm the only one who complained about it, doesn't matter how long or how many times, they didn't want to take the time.
They could, proof is they looked at it today and fixed it.
They may have other things to do, but what are they doing apart from preparing a new version of live?
So their choice is to not care about certain bug reports on already sold products and prioritize the work on the next version.
In action that's using the money spent by users on a buggy software to prepare another software rather than make sure the sold product is bug free. There's no excuse for that.

Is it better to have a bug free version of live, or working on a new version to get some promo in magazines to get more customers ?

What they did with me, don't know if they do it on other people, was as long as only one guy complains quietly about a bug they'll try to postpone the time needed to fix it for as long as possible. They won't admit it they're running a business.
A business that seems to go well though.

As a user who must have spent more time reporting the bug than it will take the guys to fix it, I think they don't respect customers, and will keep that in mind on the next version.
Quad 6600 Intel, AsusP5Q, 2Gb ram, XP sp3, Evolution MK361c & UC33e, Line6 UX8

ewistrand
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Post by ewistrand » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:06 pm

Chris J wrote:ewistrand,
Bullshit, you're defending people who don't worry, can defend themselves pretty well.
They're curing the bug because I'm making a fuss HERE NOW.
I've just been told they've identified it and I would need better arguments than what you're saying to believe they had looked into it before today.
I see you've never done software development or been involved in serious testing...
This bug was reported in Dec 07, acknowledged by the developpers in February08, but looked into on the 1st of december 08.
And where do you get that info? How do you know that they just started looking into it today?

ew

Robert Henke
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Post by Robert Henke » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:21 pm

Chris J wrote:Angstrom,
Yes they got my vote too against Cubase.

Why they wouldn't want to fix a bug ?
it's not they don't want to, they're making commercial decisions that have consequences, one of them is not taking the time to fix bugs.
wrong.
Chris J wrote: And because I'm the only one who complained about it, doesn't matter how long or how many times, they didn't want to take the time.
wrong.

Chris J wrote: They could, proof is they looked at it today and fixed it.
wrong. The fact that the bug is fixed only proves that we do care, not that it is easy to fix a specific bug.
Chris J wrote:
They may have other things to do, but what are they doing apart from preparing a new version of live?
fixing bugs, because building a new version without fixing known bugs is like building a new floor on a building without making sure the structure can support it. Deliberately not fixing known bugs is suicide and we have no intention to do so.
Chris J wrote: So their choice is to not care about certain bug reports on already sold products and prioritize the work on the next version.
We need to sell new products to pay those fixing the bugs. True. But this does not mean we do not take care of the bugs. See above why.

If we only would fix bugs we could not sell enough to pay for those who fix them. Running a company is always a compromise. We try to do our best to satisfy both existing and new customers.
Chris J wrote: In action that's using the money spent by users on a buggy software to prepare another software rather than make sure the sold product is bug free. There's no excuse for that.
See above.
Chris J wrote: Is it better to have a bug free version of live, or working on a new version to get some promo in magazines to get more customers ?
See above. The answer is: both.
Chris J wrote: What they did with me, don't know if they do it on other people, was as long as only one guy complains quietly about a bug they'll try to postpone the time needed to fix it for as long as possible. They won't admit it they're running a business.
A business that seems to go well though.
We did not deliberately treat you badly, as you can see by the reply from C. Kleine and me. And we do not deliberately delay the fix of a bug, for the mentioned reasons. A bug is a problem for us too, is this so hard to get ???

Chris J wrote: As a user who must have spent more time reporting the bug than it will take the guys to fix it, I think they don't respect customers, and will keep that in mind on the next version.
--> jobs@ableton.com If you know so well how to fix the bugs, why don't you join us?

As C. Kleine said, we are sorry if you are disappointed. As an avid user of the software myself, you have my full understanding if a bug keeps you from enjoying the product. But: as someone who actually spent five hours today importing images in a constantly crashing photo application, sold millions of times, and as user who worked with tons of soft and hardware since the mid 80s I can tell you, that Live is working quite okay for such a complex app.

Cheers, Robert

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:24 pm

I think you are reacting strongly because this hypothetical user is YOU.

If they have a big list of difficult bugs to fix in a certain order and one slips down, but you remind them and then they fix it - result. You won, be graceful about it.

However if you want a perfect world where every bug never even rears it's head then I'm sorry you need a different planet than this one. On this planet nothing is perfect, people prioritise things differently than you would like, people leave the job, notes get lost, shit happens.
Every software has bugs, and every developer must listen to a horde of users complaining about their bugs, some will be real some will be false, and some will be 8 page rants by people with personality disorders. I don't mean you BTW.

But, imagine it. Working in such an office where that is your life: sifting through piles of potential bugs, trying to reproduce and then prioritising it. If you get it wrong you get a very public name calling by someone who has no idea what you are actually doing but is making a flying assumption .

I certainly wouldn't want to work there under those conditions, "succeed or I will publicly insult you". Nice. I think I would need to be paid a lot of money to code as best I could and take constant abuse off the peanut gallery. No thanks.

I make web applications for money. If someone started publicly calling me an incompetent liar with a will to rip-off customers and a lazy good for nothing I would probably feel compelled to give them a good old fashioned stabbing.
This is probably why I don't work in customer relations

Just because you paid money does not mean the world will then conform to your wishes, that's just not realistic. Shit happens. Stuff fucks up.
At the end of the day there two ways of dealing with it when shit happens, nice and nasty. While nice may not produce immediate results, Nasty usually means your soup now has the chef's piss in it.

The world (and people) are not malevolent, they are simply constrained to a complex system of interactions.
Treat them as such.

e.maynard
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Post by e.maynard » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:27 pm

Obviously Chris J never worked in a studio prior to the days of DAW's.

Tape machines don't always work. Consoles have flakey channels. Mic power supply failures.... etc.

You learn how to do and use "work-arounds"

Of course in both cases you should "own" the recording equipment first.

People who use cracked versions are the same folks who'd steal headphones and mics from a studio on their way out.

Screw them.

chrisedmo
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Post by chrisedmo » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:37 pm

I'll admit i used to use a dodgy version for a couple of months and then i felt bad, because it was such a good product and i believed in it. So i bought v 5.2 and been upgrading ever since!

Im glad i bought it, Ableton customer care have been great to me, and i thank them - we also have a great forum, with some very knowledgeable people. These are also things you pay for. you also pay them to bring out new stuff, and i reckon the Abe's have got some cool shit in store for us!

There are bugs in everything, in safari, photoshop - anything really. You have to work around it, report it and wait.

Ableton - I love you.

There, i said it.
Macbook 1.83ghz. Ableton Live 8 :-). Guitars and keys and retro sh*t.
http://www.myspace.com/banquetmusic

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:47 pm

do the forums for other DAWs get these meglomaniacs like Timur and Chris J? seems that if the Abes never addressed users but kept their lips completely tight it wouldn't invite people like this. or am I wrong?

if you know of a bug, write up a useful bug report (how to reproduce it is enough) and well, don't do those steps again. all software has bugs, question is, are you going to let a bug be bigger than you?

go try Reaper! ;)
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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gjm
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Post by gjm » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:12 pm

Tone Deft wrote:...all software has bugs, question is, are you going to let a bug be bigger than you?

go try Reaper! ;)
I don't know whether you are being sarcastic, but my bug with Live is not reproducible in Reaper. Thats why I am having a hard time thinking about upgrading my 6LE lisence, even to 7LE because I am not confident my weak Kiwi dollar is going to buy me something that works with my brand new quad core machine. I haven't reported it to Ableton, except for a couple of threads here where dom cautioned me for my language, because I could only find one or two other users with similar problems and concluded that out of the vast user Live base I would not get any service. Yes thats an assumption. But I am a needle in a hay stack.

I can empathize with Chris J. I am not dissing Abe's, they are very busy people balancing their time and resources the best way they can. Their communication with me has ALWAYS been awesome. But I am choked about spending $2000 to run a $150 program that in the end doesn't want to work. I am trying my best to solve it myself, but I can't help but feel frustrated and disappointed. :oops:
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

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