Ban Timur/Crash?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

Should Timur/Crash be banned?

No, he should not be banned.
58
59%
Ableton, please ban Timur/Crash - the forum is better without him.
40
41%
 
Total votes: 98

blackboab
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Post by blackboab » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:54 pm

UKRuss wrote: "i recently purchased x, it is broken. please could you let me know when it will be fixed or replaced."

I'd hope he woudl receiove swift and couteous attention and apology.

But consider the same guy who launches in with:

" I bought x the other day, it is broken! How can you possibly expect peopel to come to your store again if you can't even sell goods in a decent order! What are you going to do about it? I expect you to get back to me before 3pm today!"

Now that is instantly confrontational and aggressive and while i respect that he has a point i would hope that the problem is still solved but could i expect the supplier to show the same level of interest in assisting that person?

Does buying the goods also buy the right to forego manners and decency and also buy the right to aggressiveness and then perhaps violence?

of course not.
Hit the f'kin nail on the head there mate ... spot on ... but I am sure that crash-tumor will have a come back ... never accepts anything gracefully that one, and therin lies the crux of the matter ... u gotta love him. Reminds me a lot of my 4-year old son .... little f'ker gets the last word in every time. It's all part of growing up I suppose. Go on crash-tumor, prove me wrong.

Khazul
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Post by Khazul » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:10 pm

Perhaps if the general response to a posted problem by all parties wasnt on the lines of a flood of it-work-for me-must-be-you type posts from everyone else (regardles of whether they are ever likely to be relying upon that same non-functional part of Live), then certain perople wouldnt need to keep revisting the same issues and getting more and more pissed off each time.

I for one am actually quite glad Crash has been very vocal about certain issues as those same issues have been hitting me as well (quite honestly its rediculous the levels he has had to go to to get heard!)- the difference with me is I have long since given up any hope of ableton giving a damn about hardware synth users beyond a bit of marketting tick list support - we seem to be very very low priority - perhaps I am being cynical, but thats why I dont keep ranting on about certain problems and usually just make the odd response posts to yet another release that dont address them.

In abes defence - they finally got around to addressing one of the most annoying V7 bugs in the .12 release that crash was yelling about alot and basically being ignored - now Im not going to be bowing low and saying thank you abes - because quite frankly it shouldnt have been there in the first place - it was a serious defect and it was rediculous that a bug that severely impacted a class of users took so long to be acknowleged and fixed. (If indeed it was acknoweledge mnuch sooner, well a forum post on the lines of 'yes we know, were looking at it might have helped a bit dont you think?).

BTW - Im a developer too and understand that point of view, but I'm also a user of alot of software and therefore like the rest of us have first hand experience of the lack of quality in many software products - and from that point of view, I actually feel a bit embarrassed to be part of the software industry and its endless pitiful excuses for contuing to ship buggy software and relying upon PAYING end users to help you fix it - the company I work for is just as guilty.

Live is certainly way better than most DAW apps, but thats still not an excuse for shipping with crippling bugs that severely impact hardware synth users and not even making any kind of comment on the lines of 'yes - we know - were trying to sort it out' and instead just ignoring people who mention it.

What I really dont get - the Ableton founder is very much into hardware synths (I thought) - does he not use Live, or does he just use it differently and so never hit the sync problems?

You cant just blame crash etc, the blame for the situation goes around alot of people, here in the forums and inside Ableton.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Khazul
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Post by Khazul » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:14 pm

Tone Deft wrote:what's the chance of him being a beta tester for Live 8? 8O
I think you have to fit a mold - use Live exclusively, and not be tempted by other hardware or plugins ;)
Nothing to see here - move along!

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:59 pm

Khazul wrote: - now Im not going to be bowing low and saying thank you abes - because quite frankly it shouldnt have been there in the first place - it was a serious defect and it was rediculous that a bug that severely impacted a class of users took so long to be acknowleged and fixed. (If indeed it was acknoweledge mnuch sooner, well a forum post on the lines of 'yes we know, were looking at it might have helped a bit dont you think?).

BTW - Im a developer too and understand that point of view, but I'm also a user of alot of software and therefore like the rest of us have first hand experience of the lack of quality in many software products - and from that point of view, I actually feel a bit embarrassed to be part of the software industry and its endless pitiful excuses for contuing to ship buggy software and relying upon PAYING end users to help you fix it - the company I work for is just as guilty.

Live is certainly way better than most DAW apps, but thats still not an excuse for shipping with crippling bugs that severely impact hardware synth users and not even making any kind of comment on the lines of 'yes - we know - were trying to sort it out' and instead just ignoring people who mention it.
I've used computer based sequencers for 20 years now. There isn't a single DAW ever that didn't have a crippling bug that kept a certain part of the paying user base unhappy. Not one. Even Logic 4.8 which was 100% working for me, had a few bugs that bothered other people.

Doesn't matter that you're a developer, I've no doubt that your application isn't as complex as a modern DAW. Personally I don't think that with audio recording, MIDI, and virtual plug ins it's possible to have a 100% bug free DAW that successfully adds new features in order to keep up with the other DAWs and stay competitive. In the last 8 years that I've been very seriously using DAWs, I haven't seen it.
Point is I don't make comments about support, I don't harass them mercilessly about it, I use other DAWs if a problem is too big. I let them know for sure, but the reason crash gets singled out is his attitude about it, like this.
Crash wrote: I'm the opposite, all of my clients feel very much cared for. At least they keep coming back despite the many alternatives. Unfortunately there ain't (m)any alternatives for Session-Mode. :roll:
Crash wrote:
chrysalis33rpm wrote:Look Timur, I think you need to chill the fuck out...I just don't agree with banning on principle, especially on this crazy forum.
Don't worry, I am chilling over this whole mess all the time. Parts of this is so ridiculous that I should be upset maybe, but I'm mostly amused and maybe somewhat bewildered. I'm not so much amused about my experience with Ableton Support, but that's not the essence or even basis of this "discussion" here anymore anyway.
When it's his attitude about support, his attitude about bugs that is most definitely the basis of this 'discussion'. The DSP thread was such a great example, and of course I've mentioned it a few times with no reply from crash. People who know the code that makes up the process of converting sample rates etc. explaining it to him, and him telling them they're wrong, not coding it good enough etc.
It's not the bug reports on their 'beloved' software that bother people, it's the attitude of being always right, even in the face of experts telling him otherwise, that's what bothers people, and why he gets called a troll.

For instance the Areo mode bug in Vista. Not a major bug, turning off a feature in Vista causes problems with Live, leaving it on leads to other issues. Welcome to Vista. Welcome to nearly every tweak you can do to a computer. It seems to have been a major hassle to solve it, but it's solved. Instead of being happy about it, crash posts that he's "quitting his inofficial job as Vista support guy".

Anyway I have no real beef with him, but I joked around in a PM that he's an on topic troll, and I meant it. You try explaining to him that something is wrong with his logic and he ignores it, or spends far too much of your time debating unimportant details, and keeps up the rant.....

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:13 pm

There's really no point. This sad man thinks he's the protagonist. In reality he's a disturbed person with a twisted grasp on reality. Just look at all the conversations (or rather not.. Just look at a few). He bends context like no other. And he finds it flattering when this is pointed out. Internet Puberty for Goths.. Its a bitch..

I was close to contacting one of his band members to ask if he's for real. Because he may need serious help. But once you start looking into his band, you'll realize this whole thing is a setup.

http://blog.scherbenreich.de/?p=107

Basically their mission statement is a band thats all about Schadenfreude. Actively taking enjoyment of the failures of others. No wonder they only managed to get 4 songs. With Timur "playing the Ableton Bug Reports" as it literally says on his artist page.

His goal is exactly what is happening. This state of mild chaos he created is all just a rather clever setup.

Nice show from Timur. No need to ban him. Banning has the opposite effect anyway. Cut off a limb and 2 more will grow..
What can be done is simply keeping him exposed. Once everybody realizes that this whole thing has NOTHING to do with his bug reports, it all blow over.
Ignoring him won't work in this case, since he's dodging every point and insult.
Reminds me of Gods Pottery (.com). Look holy, entertain the crowd and eventually get beaten because he's a one trick pony.

Here's where it gets fun. Since I said this has nothing to do with his bugs. He'll either ignore this post. Or twist the whole context in a way that made it look like he's interpreting my post as a statement that he is making this shit up.
He's not. Some bugs are valid. Others are figments of his imagination.
If you take it from him, he's the most proficient software tester this world has ever seen.. Its all part of the act.

Lets do a comparison. Find out how many posts of him that can be found. For example. Of Crash's 791 posts, you'll find 791 matches. Of Timur's 2200 posts, you'll find 2200 posts.
In my case, of the 10300 posts.. About 9400 can be found. Which means about 900 posts of mine got deleted. Where did they go?
The Live 4, 5 and 6 public beta forums are long gone now.. Along with my 900 posts in a section that only housed bug reports.

Now here's the point of the comparison.. He's talking about a part of the community ganging up on him. He's right. Though we got a different definition of which part of the community that is.
Lets look.. Poster, Tone Deft, Machinate, Yours truly, Ableton Support Staff, Angstrom, Noisetonepause and many more..
This little group along makes up for about 10 000 deleted posts in topics that were all about Live Bugs. If you count up the time we spent testing Live collectively, you end up with a number that spans YEARS.

My argument here is: While he did find a few bugs, they're just an excuse to spread the type of anarchy he and his band member indulge in.
He doesn't know what he is talking about when he gets all technical. I dare anybody besides himself to condense his most technical post into something a regular Live user can understand. Because that is the essence of bug reporting.
The Ableton Support Staff ARE Live users.

Damn.. This is a Timur-sized post :lol:
Our own little Aston Kutcher.. You just got Goth'd!

djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:47 pm

For being one the top 10 posters of all time on Ableton.com/forum, I sure did miss the boat on this one

First, who is Timur / Crash

I have honestly never seen anything remotely abusive or troll like from either or

as customary in this situation, I say, "Curious?"

Second, it is always interesting when someone demands someone else be banned? Seriously, that will not solve anything for any given period of time

for every troll that gets banned, 10 others are registering usernames


anywho...


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Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:06 pm

8O don't hassle the Hoff2k.

Timur banned Timur, who's he to say that we can't ban him? nobody's getting banned, it's just fun to threaten.

DJ Ad - basically he's a tech troll. I don't get into computers and bugs, I do get into audio. when he goes on and on about bugs and OSes, I don't care, I see him like everyone else long winded and harmless. when I get into it with him over audio he makes no sense yet he charges forward making mistakes everywhere, jumping to incorrect conclusions, never admitting he's wrong, ultimately a one paragraph reply to him turns into a 3 paragraph response from him where he starts talking about himself, rehashes dumb things he's said and introduces more bullshit. in the span of a page a one paragraph post turns into a multi-quote saga where the original point is completely lost.

now apply that to him and the Abes. suppose your job had a message board to talk about your workplace and the above scenario wasn't audio, it was your specialty and he's not only posting bullshit on the board calling you incompetent, but sending your support team massive e-mails.

wrap all that up in a holier-than-thou passive aggressive always polite writing style and you get Timur, always the victim, never wrong, always keeps the high road with his language and demeanor.

Timur was his first login, then he banned himself because people didn't agree with him on how cool he was. then this 'Crash' guy showed up in mid September. I was on vacation for 2 weeks, I checked the board once and it was clear that Crash and 'Trash' were doing a tag team spam attack on the forum. I'll bet Trash was a friend of his, check Heff2k's reference to schadenfreude and Timur's band. Crash started giving Ableton a hard time and an Abe straight up posted "Timur, cut it out" and outed him (that was hilarious!) eventually Crash turned right back into Timur.

nice enough guy, he can make me laugh, but he's tedious as @#$% to deal with when it comes to technical stuff.



OK... ignoring him lasted all of a few hours, on to plan 2... a bar of soap in the bottom of a sock.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
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hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:21 pm

And another note of proof is Timur's own comments in the blog I linked.
Here's him talking about the team in charge of the festival.
Das Team schien mir im Rahmen seiner Möglichkeiten bemüht. Der Rahmen und die Möglichkeiten waren klein, das Ergebnis entsprechend bescheiden.
Roughly translated:
The team seemed to be trying within the limits of their capacities. The limits and the capacities were small, the result therefore poor
.

Then he goes on admitting that he messed up the gig and kisses the boots of some guy named Lukas.

This whole thing revolves basically around a few goth guys with Timur trying to get approval from hist gothic master.
This stuff is so funny, you can't make it up.

Crash
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Post by Crash » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:16 pm

BILDzeitung! :!:

Now it seems like I have to humbly ask my "Goth Master" first to find out if he is willing to have his name and the name of his project being dragged into dirt by people he never met, never attacked or had to deal with in any way before going on with this drama.

Just so much: "Scherbenreich" is a Blog that is run by a person I personally don't even know, it is not related to the Band "Autoaggression" in any way other than the Blog reporting about a messed up festival that the band played on (among many others).

Listing me as being responsible for "Ableton Bug Reports" on the Myspace site is an ironical joke on me by my bandmate that he listed right after "Geekness". Please leave him out of this rediculous discussion just as much as my mother ("cunt") and sister ("gives blowjobs" and "call it raping the willing"). Thank you.

PS: Sorry, lacking time now for writing adequate answers to the hillarious posts coming up recently.
HAL: I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.

Khazul
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Post by Khazul » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:01 pm

Machinesworking wrote: I've used computer based sequencers for 20 years now. There isn't a single DAW ever that didn't have a crippling bug that kept a certain part of the paying user base unhappy. Not one. Even Logic 4.8 which was 100% working for me, had a few bugs that bothered other people.
So what?
Machinesworking wrote:
Doesn't matter that you're a developer, I've no doubt that your application isn't as complex as a modern DAW. Personally I don't think that with audio recording, MIDI, and virtual plug ins it's possible to have a 100% bug free DAW that successfully adds new features in order to keep up with the other DAWs and stay competitive.
With the way software is currently developed today in most companies - what you say is true - that however doesnt mean we should accept it and not consider that it could be alot better, and in fact start expecting bettter.

As it happens - those buildings up the road from you in Redmond - lets just say I have worked in them - several of them in fact over the years - so I know just a little about really big projects and complex product development and how hard it is to get software bug free etc deal with legacy designs etc - that doesnt mean I accept things as they are.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Crash
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Post by Crash » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:39 pm

Khazul wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: I've used computer based sequencers for 20 years now. There isn't a single DAW ever that didn't have a crippling bug that kept a certain part of the paying user base unhappy. Not one. Even Logic 4.8 which was 100% working for me, had a few bugs that bothered other people.
So what?
Isn't it strange how so many people around here bash on Microsoft and Vista shouting: Bah, throw Vista into the bin, it's bug-ridden and performs badly, don't ever use it or give it any chance, stick to XP!

The very same people keep repeating how Ableton is no miracle company in that it cannot release bug-free software and how incredibly "complex" DAWs like Live are (as if other software is not, especially OSes) and to give Ableton a break and not show more understanding.

Not only is that quite biased (if not even bigoted in some cases), but also no one ever really asked Ableton to release 100% bug-free software anyway, so the point is nearly irrelevant. The main concern revolves about how Ableton handle bugs. I don't find anything particular over-complex in README files, do you? :wink:
Last edited by Crash on Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
HAL: I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:41 pm

Khazul wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: I've used computer based sequencers for 20 years now. There isn't a single DAW ever that didn't have a crippling bug that kept a certain part of the paying user base unhappy. Not one. Even Logic 4.8 which was 100% working for me, had a few bugs that bothered other people.
So what?
So what you're saying here is you would rather see developers given large rations of shit for what is a SOP in the industry,
rather than doing something radical like exercise your free will and own more than one DAW, thereby ensuring that 99% of the bugs in one are not a problem in the other, which means you can work with the system the way it is, rather than badger development teams that operate on limited budgets like Ableton. I'm really having a hard time reading what you posted any other way.
You worked for Microsoft, a company with unlimited capital, they STILL release software that isn't perfect. Some of it is due to the wide net they throw trying to cover all the hardware variations out there, but a lot of it is due to simple capitalism. They have to compete, even if they can't be completely ousted they have to have new product to sell, it's the very nature of capitalism you seem to be at odds with here. At some point the value VS quality issue HAS to be addressed, in the end they have to make a profit otherwise they go out of business.
What bothers me more than anything else about this isn't that you want perfection it's that you aren't being realistic about what that means in terms of bottom line. The fact of the matter is in the last 8 years or so I've visited various music forums not one developer has been harassed into making perfect software by any forum post, all it's done is fuel animosity and make ZERO difference in the end.

You stating that the industry should make rock solid software doesn't do shit to change the fact that Ableton have no real choice but to compete against the other DAWs out there, and improve their feature set, which ALWAYS runs the risk of new bugs for some odd combination of hardware and software some guy somewhere has.

doc holiday
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Post by doc holiday » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:54 pm

ban from the forum = no

ban from support = yes

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:58 pm

Crash wrote:
Khazul wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: I've used computer based sequencers for 20 years now. There isn't a single DAW ever that didn't have a crippling bug that kept a certain part of the paying user base unhappy. Not one. Even Logic 4.8 which was 100% working for me, had a few bugs that bothered other people.
So what?
Isn't it strange how so many people around here bash on Microsoft and Vista shouting: Bah, throw Vista into the bin, it's bug-ridden and performs badly, don't ever use it or give it any chance, stick to XP!

The very same people keep repeating how Ableton is no miracle company in that it cannot release bug-free software and how incredibly "complex" DAWs like Live are (as if other software is not, especially OSes) and to give Ableton a break and not show more understanding.

Not only is that quite bigoted, but also no one ever asked Ableton to release 100% bug-free software to begin with. The main concern revolves about how they handle bugs. I don't find anything particular over-complex in README files, do you? :wink:
Your main concern is centered around your bugs, due to your set up, OS, hardware, software etc. If it's not affecting everybody then it's not as important to them to fix it. You being a dick about it to them does NOTHING to help your cause, and I really don't get that part? I have no idea why you think acting like an angry parent towards them will send them scurrying off to code your list of bugs away?? That's why you perceive it's about you, because you can't just report a bug, you have to add an insult to it, and you have since day one.

Nobody around here bashes XP, yet you MUST use an OS that is not accepted yet as a standard for music production, yet it's other people that are being hypocrites because you want to use the latest OS no matter what the rest of the industry is doing.

mikemc
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Post by mikemc » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:34 am

Machinesworking wrote: Nobody around here bashes XP, yet you MUST use an OS that is not accepted yet as a standard for music production, yet it's other people that are being hypocrites because you want to use the latest OS no matter what the rest of the industry is doing.
For a semi-serious moment: I've got Vista for my admittedly modest use, and I have given some thought, at times, to reproduce some of the things Timur encounters. But, because, as is accurately noted, the reporting of these things are not boiled down to a set of 1), 2), 3)... n) steps, and are often accompanied by rancor, it is difficult to extend the time and effort.

I'm sure Timur/Crash is a smart guy. I could probably even learn some things from reproducing these issues, but it's just not worth it.

A bit of insight, maybe: I've worked in support for an API library where questions would come from very smart people who have struggled for a long time with an issue, and often felt like they had failed/were stupid for having to contact support, so their opening statements would be geared towards demonstrating how smart they were.

However, it was never the case that "how smart they were" had anything to do with the cause of, and ultimate solution for, their problem.

As Robert Henke mentioned in an earlier thread, this is primarily a forum about music for people who like and make music, and I have rarely seen anyone with a reasonably phrased question or issue not get an answer that is at least somewhat helpful.

So if Crash/Timur wants people to try to work with you through his issues, I would suggest that he value the time that people might expend in a) understanding the posts/report and b) in trying to reproduce them.

Because ultimately, maybe sadly and maybe not, Crash/Timur's ability to achieve something musicially to his liking, using the equipment of his choosing, is an undertaking he has embarked on his own accord, for himself and by himself, with no guarantees of producing a single note of soul-satifying merit.

As it is for all of us. [/b][/i]

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