ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Post Reply
sburke1
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:16 pm
Contact:

ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by sburke1 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:34 am

Hello, i am bouncing stems out of protools into ableton to perform live. When I import into ableton I want to warp the stems because I might want to switch tempo.

When I import, ableton adds silence at the beginning of the wavs. It then takes me forever to warp these, although these are bounced on a grid. Theoretically i dont want to spend anytime warping these cuz they should just lock. Does any one experience this or have a solution to this? These wavs dont have silence on the beginning of them when i import into other programs. weird. help. thanks.
Macbook Pro 15'' 2.6 ghz 4GB ram, zero sl, kaos pad, microkorg, roctron banshee, rhodes, clav, motif, fc300

www.myspace.com/samburkecambridge
www.youtube.com/samburkevideo

xherv
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:42 am

Post by xherv » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:07 am

If the stuff is on a pretty solid tempo grid, it should be pretty easy to warp . . . usually warping a long track that's got tight timing is just a process of adjusting the first warp marker and maybe two or three more towards the end of the track.

If you have 'auto-warp long clips' in the warp preferences turned on that might trip you up a bit.

Another thing that might be useful is warping one stem and assuming the others are the same length .wav, there's some way to replace the sample in a clip with another sample but keep the warp settings. It's in the manual somewhere (along with the nuances of warping long tracks), and searching the forum should give good info too.
http://www.soundcloud.com/xherv
I know EVERYTHING that I know and you don't know, and don't know what I don't know that you know, so I'll ignore that stuff. Wassup now?

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by beats me » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:45 am

I don't think this is just a Live issue. I've worked on tracks from different people using other programs and almost all of them have had some kind of silence or start that isn't quite on point. There have also been tempo issues where one program says the tempo is something like 90 and another says it's something like 89.45.

I've never really understood this. These are computers. Zero should be zero and the tempo should be the same no matter what you bounced it on or stick it in.

leedsquietman
Posts: 6659
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
Location: greater toronto area

Post by leedsquietman » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:59 am

Stuff like your latency affects this, even a few ms difference between one application and/or soundcard settings and another will require realigning and nudging.

Nudge audio is helpful for situations like this. I always find these discrepancies if moving audio between Cubase and Live and vice versa too. Quite often the tempo will be out by a fraction on one or the other.

I did a collab with a drummer who uses a FF800 on super low latency settings that I Can only dream of with my Alesis IO14, so I had to nudge his drum audio a 1/128 note or a few ticks forward in Cubase, as I couldn't seem to line it up in Live.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

sburke1
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:16 pm
Contact:

thanks

Post by sburke1 » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:38 pm

all of my stems are bounced at the same tempo and are moslty the same length, so ill break out the manual and see if i can warp one, then affect all the others, thanks for the tip

warpin the drums is easy, its the bgd vox , and more melodic stuff that is tough to warp, i tried just moving the first warp marker to the right but that didnt work as I would have thought
Macbook Pro 15'' 2.6 ghz 4GB ram, zero sl, kaos pad, microkorg, roctron banshee, rhodes, clav, motif, fc300

www.myspace.com/samburkecambridge
www.youtube.com/samburkevideo

kaiweb
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:17 am

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by kaiweb » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:21 am

Hello, I see silence added to tracks that I am importing. This is a major problem. A client exported a reference track that is lined up with the grid at a specific BPM. So I need to be able to snap the track to the grid in Ableton. I can't do that if Ableton adds silence to the beginning of the track. This isn't the kind of thing that I can just eyeball, because this is actually a very common and repetitive process where a client sends a reference track that is lined up with a grid. I can't tell the client, "yeah, I sort of guessed where the downbeats are."

I tested the same exact file with Reaper, and it's aligned perfectly in Reaper. Why does ableton live add silence at the beginning? Now the track is not aligned as my client intended.

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by [jur] » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:23 pm

kaiweb wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:21 am
Hello, I see silence added to tracks that I am importing. This is a major problem. A client exported a reference track that is lined up with the grid at a specific BPM. So I need to be able to snap the track to the grid in Ableton. I can't do that if Ableton adds silence to the beginning of the track. This isn't the kind of thing that I can just eyeball, because this is actually a very common and repetitive process where a client sends a reference track that is lined up with a grid. I can't tell the client, "yeah, I sort of guessed where the downbeats are."

I tested the same exact file with Reaper, and it's aligned perfectly in Reaper. Why does ableton live add silence at the beginning? Now the track is not aligned as my client intended.
Is your reference track an MP3?
Ableton Forum Moderator

kaiweb
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:17 am

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by kaiweb » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:33 pm

Yes it's an mp3, because it is a reference track sent to me by my producer. I'm trying to record stems that lock into the grid that I can send back to him. I can't do this if his reference track doesn't even lock into the grid right.

I've also discovered that exported wavs also have this inserted silence. This is a huge embarrassment. We've spent days trying to figure out why I'm the only artist who is having this problem. A huge embarrassment to myself and to Ableton.

High Priority Basic Common Scenario:
1. Producer/Engineer sends reference audio to Artist, with specified BPM.
2. Artist changes all the default settings to try to keep Ableton from changing the BPM (turn off the default warp)
3. Artist sets the BPM, and imports the reference track, snapping it into the BPM grid.
4. Artist records tracks
5. Artist exports all the individual stems
6. Producer/Engineer imports the stems, snapping them perfectly into the BPM grid so that everything is in sync.

Currently steps 3 and 6 are broken because silence is inserted by Ableton into the audio files (mp3 and wav). I haven't had time to test other formats because these are the only two that matter to me right now. The producer is now telling me to stop using ableton all together, so I'm in danger of losing this gig.

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by [jur] » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:36 pm

That's a side effect of exporting to mp3, that's not because of Live. Ask your dude to export the reference track to .wav
And double check your own .wav export... it's highly unlikely that it adds slicence.
Ableton Forum Moderator

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by [jur] » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:38 pm

kaiweb wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:33 pm
The producer is now telling me to stop using ableton all together, so I'm in danger of losing this gig.
8O

"producer" :lol:
Ableton Forum Moderator

Da hand
Posts: 1670
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:38 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by Da hand » Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:28 am

kaiweb wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:33 pm
Yes it's an mp3, because it is a reference track sent to me by my producer. I'm trying to record stems that lock into the grid that I can send back to him. I can't do this if his reference track doesn't even lock into the grid right. .
You cannot lock anything with an mp3 in any program. Mp3s are not sample accurate when converted or rendered from other formats (which is why, for example, you hear gaps in a continuous album split into tracks in mp3 format, but not in WAV format). Mp3s were never meant for audio production, they were meant for internet streaming.

Like [jur] wrote, ask for an original WAV export for all the material. Tell your "producer" that this is the professional way of doing things, not with an mp3. Also, make sure they are not simply taking their exported mp3 tracks and then converting them to WAV to give to you, lol.

kaiweb
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:17 am

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by kaiweb » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:08 pm

This person is paying me. Don't be so disrespectful. I am respectful of my clients, because that's good customer service. I can make a certain amount of effort to educate people, but I would never ever treat them the way you are treating people here. What kind of community are you trying to foster here? You are guys are more arrogant and condescending than actually helpful and supportive. I am simply providing you information at other DAWs are not inserting space at the beginning of the reference mp3 I'm receiving. You can choose whether or not that's going to be something worth putting time into in order to play well with other DAWs and support your artist community, or you can decide that is not the effort. But then going and insulting people who are legitimately trying to pay their bills because all their performances are canceled is pretty despicable. Enjoy your ivory tower while the music industry is burning right now.

kaiweb
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:17 am

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by kaiweb » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:23 pm

Da Hand, thanks for your helpful response. You're a better moderator than the actual moderators here.

ecuk
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:49 pm

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by ecuk » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:27 am

I agree that Live could perhaps play nicer with the rest of the world on this, but I do not believe Live is the bad guy here. The MP3 decoding process by its very nature provides a bit of silence at the beginning of tracks. See, for example, the second question on the LAME Technical FAQ. If you are talking about silence on the order of 10 milliseconds or so, this is very likely the cause.

In other words, it is not that Live adds silence, it is that these other DAWs remove part of the decoded audio which they presume to be silence. I prefer to be the one deciding things like that, not my DAW.

In any case, I would never work with MP3 for audio work unless there were no other choice whatsoever; for example, I have worked in forensic audio where people often record with something daft (but handy) like a mobile phone. MP3 is, after all, a lossy compression format which can introduce unwanted artefacts via both the encoding and the decoding process. For professional audio, MP3 should really only ever be used as a final, post-mastering output format, not as an input or an intermediate one.
MacBook Pro, macOS Catalina 10.15.6, 2.3GHz i7-1068NG7, 32GB – Live Suite 10.1.18, Max 8.1.5, Push 2, Zoom H6, ATH-M50x

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Ableton

Re: ableton adds silence to beggining of songs?

Post by [jur] » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:14 pm

kaiweb wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:08 pm
This person is paying me. Don't be so disrespectful. I am respectful of my clients, because that's good customer service. I can make a certain amount of effort to educate people, but I would never ever treat them the way you are treating people here. What kind of community are you trying to foster here? You are guys are more arrogant and condescending than actually helpful and supportive. I am simply providing you information at other DAWs are not inserting space at the beginning of the reference mp3 I'm receiving. You can choose whether or not that's going to be something worth putting time into in order to play well with other DAWs and support your artist community, or you can decide that is not the effort. But then going and insulting people who are legitimately trying to pay their bills because all their performances are canceled is pretty despicable. Enjoy your ivory tower while the music industry is burning right now.
Hey Kaiweb,
Sorry I didn’t mean to sound disrespectful.
1) I’m not a native English speaking person, so I might wrote things in a way that sounds different to what I mean, between the lines.
2) but there was some irony in my answer yes, as I think it’s quite radical (your producer) to ask someone (you) changing his tool when you are the one who actually provided an unreliable source.
I hope it makes more sense now. I’m not living in an ivory tower, but in an irony one :wink:

Btw, I did spend quite some time researching about mp3 management in Reaper and it seems like it can (but I’m not sure it always does) automatically remove/ignore these “silence bits”. I havent’ found any reliable source, though (from Reaper’s doc or website).
Ableton Forum Moderator

Post Reply