not enough utilites, too many unessecary additions...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Khazul
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Location: Reading, UK

Post by Khazul » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:11 pm

Live to me has both made using a computer for music creation (rather than just tracking an mix) bareable - actually quite enjoyable (Some time spent trying t be creative in Cubase 4 for eg was allmost enough to mske me abando computer entirely for the creative phase).

The other side of the coin is that while Live is very liberating in many ways, especially in the way it handles audio and its session mode, it is also by far the most combersome DAW to work in in arrange mode.

Just little things like being able to hide tracks and exclude them from being selected by you DAW controler would help get rid of the clutter. Regular switching between arrange and session to get something that vagely approximates a mixer view is a workflow annoyance - I so wish you could have a session+mixer view on one monitor and an arranage view on the other.

External instruments and external fx - great idea, but they are so sorely lacking in practical useful functionality - it seems so obvious to give each of them a few assignable knobs to automate CCs and midi wierd clock behavior that seem to cause has kind of killed using them for me (and I never really spent the time trying to figure out exactly what the problem is, so ended up sticking with midi tracks and audio tracks which just worked)

Drum racks - again great idea, but crippling to use if you use CPU heavy non-ableton pluggins - try sticking 8 instances of stylus RMX in a drum rack and watch your PC/mac just die under the load. So end the end, Ive never used drum racks either.


Dont get me wrong - Live is a great application - I actually have 2 full suite licenses and a non suite license to cover simultaneous use on all the computers here, and both the producer I work with use it - you dont make that investment in something unless its really really useful, but sometimes its also so damn frustrating and painful too when your working project with lots of tracks, or where you find what you want to do doesnt quite fit a narrow mold of what someone had in mind when they implemented a feature. Dont do a steinberg yamaha on us - finish the features you started! :)
Nothing to see here - move along!

djgroovy
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Location: Portugal

Post by djgroovy » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:30 pm

Khazul wrote: Drum racks - again great idea, but crippling to use if you use CPU heavy non-ableton pluggins - try sticking 8 instances of stylus RMX in a drum rack and watch your PC/mac just die under the load. So end the end, Ive never used drum racks either.
Surely if you place 8 instances of Stylus on normal midi tracks it will take your cpu away too... i don't think you can blame drum racks on this one imho.

Amberience
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:09 am
Location: London, UK

Post by Amberience » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:13 pm

aleme wrote:
Robert Henke wrote:we simply do not have the resources to do so while also working on new ideas that go away from a classical DAW.
Cheers, Robert
but the price for your product is too high for that statement! in my opinion you should have the resources. fire some customer care or other unnecessary business units guys and hire some very good skilled developers.

for all the users saying the op should stfu:

i know here are alot of people totally hyped and addicted by ableton, that´s the reason they come forward as ableton´s attorneys. i think the op has the right to speech for himself and to complain about important but missing features.
Fire customer care??

Okay. I work for a smallish software development company, and you have no idea what you talk about. I'm part of a small team who provide customer support. I work in customer care. BUT....

I also pack orders, I also ship orders. I QA the software before release, I make presets for our users, I'm one of two people who reproduce bugs our users and beta-team report to us. I respond to users support queries, even when they're clearly stupid. I arrange discounts, and I have a lot on my plate.

But you see me as unnecessary?? 8O 8O 8O

Like I said.. you have no idea what you're talking about. Ableton are likely a very small team. The customer care guy most likely does a lot of stuff that is very important to the company... in fact, the customer care team could be comprised of secretaries, quality assurance people, staff who ship boxes, answer phone calls.. etc.. etc... you get the point.

They probably have about 20 people working for them at their HQ, and a few remote support people around the world. Don't be fooled by the marketing, they're most likely NOT a massive company!!

The price of the product is not too high for the statements that Robert has made. You are just a typical greedy consumer who is not thankful for what he/she has.

Khazul
Posts: 3185
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Reading, UK

Post by Khazul » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:19 pm

djgroovy wrote:
Khazul wrote: Drum racks - again great idea, but crippling to use if you use CPU heavy non-ableton pluggins - try sticking 8 instances of stylus RMX in a drum rack and watch your PC/mac just die under the load. So end the end, Ive never used drum racks either.
Surely if you place 8 instances of Stylus on normal midi tracks it will take your cpu away too... i don't think you can blame drum racks on this one imho.
Nowhere near ther same extent of CPU and memory use - its multitimberal - 8 channels - so I dont need 8 intstances otherwise - why why drums racks turns out to not be very useful.

With multi-timeral plugin support ie where not all, but more than one note could be routed to a plugin - we'd be rockin!

Actually in live 7 the only useful new bit I can think of where - side chain gate, side chain comp, extra automation lanes visible and erm... actually I cant think of anyting else off-hand. Oh yeh - spectrum analyser!

Useful idea that started to get implemented and near a load more development - well thats a while different story - so yes - I would welcome a 7.5 that finished the external instrument and external effects plugins and made drum racks useful etc, but otherwise added nothing new.

I would welcome Live 8 too no doubt...
Nothing to see here - move along!

djgroovy
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Location: Portugal

Post by djgroovy » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:35 pm

Khazul wrote:
djgroovy wrote:
Khazul wrote: Drum racks - again great idea, but crippling to use if you use CPU heavy non-ableton pluggins - try sticking 8 instances of stylus RMX in a drum rack and watch your PC/mac just die under the load. So end the end, Ive never used drum racks either.
Surely if you place 8 instances of Stylus on normal midi tracks it will take your cpu away too... i don't think you can blame drum racks on this one imho.
Nowhere near ther same extent of CPU and memory use - its multitimberal - 8 channels - so I dont need 8 intstances otherwise - why why drums racks turns out to not be very useful.

With multi-timeral plugin support ie where not all, but more than one note could be routed to a plugin - we'd be rockin!

Actually in live 7 the only useful new bit I can think of where - side chain gate, side chain comp, extra automation lanes visible and erm... actually I cant think of anyting else off-hand. Oh yeh - spectrum analyser!

Useful idea that started to get implemented and near a load more development - well thats a while different story - so yes - I would welcome a 7.5 that finished the external instrument and external effects plugins and made drum racks useful etc, but otherwise added nothing new.

I would welcome Live 8 too no doubt...
Then i have good news for you!
You can do what you want in drum racks with just one instance, using the external instrument plugin.
Here's a little guide i made:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 56#3342456

Khazul
Posts: 3185
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Location: Reading, UK

Post by Khazul » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:44 pm

djgroovy wrote:Then i have good news for you!
You can do what you want in drum racks with just one instance, using the external instrument plugin.
Here's a little guide i made:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 56#3342456
Cheers I'll check that out.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Moody
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:47 pm

Post by Moody » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:56 pm

Speak with your wallet. 8)
Ableton’s engineers are hard
at work developing code that will allow our software to predict the future, but we don’t
anticipate having this available until at least the next major release.

aleme
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Post by aleme » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:10 am

Amberience wrote:
aleme wrote:
Robert Henke wrote:we simply do not have the resources to do so while also working on new ideas that go away from a classical DAW.
Cheers, Robert
but the price for your product is too high for that statement! in my opinion you should have the resources. fire some customer care or other unnecessary business units guys and hire some very good skilled developers.

for all the users saying the op should stfu:

i know here are alot of people totally hyped and addicted by ableton, that´s the reason they come forward as ableton´s attorneys. i think the op has the right to speech for himself and to complain about important but missing features.
Fire customer care??

Okay. I work for a smallish software development company, and you have no idea what you talk about. I'm part of a small team who provide customer support. I work in customer care. BUT....

I also pack orders, I also ship orders. I QA the software before release, I make presets for our users, I'm one of two people who reproduce bugs our users and beta-team report to us. I respond to users support queries, even when they're clearly stupid. I arrange discounts, and I have a lot on my plate.

But you see me as unnecessary?? 8O 8O 8O

Like I said.. you have no idea what you're talking about. Ableton are likely a very small team. The customer care guy most likely does a lot of stuff that is very important to the company... in fact, the customer care team could be comprised of secretaries, quality assurance people, staff who ship boxes, answer phone calls.. etc.. etc... you get the point.

They probably have about 20 people working for them at their HQ, and a few remote support people around the world. Don't be fooled by the marketing, they're most likely NOT a massive company!!

The price of the product is not too high for the statements that Robert has made. You are just a typical greedy consumer who is not thankful for what he/she has.
B U L L S H I T!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT ABLETON!!! 20 PEOPLE? THEY ARE MORE THAN 70!!!!!! BTW Their cust care team is not the technical support! i compared the pricing in relation to the feature set of e.g. cubase, logic, sonar, etc . im not a greedy guy, i have my license otherwise i would use cracked software. using warez is greedy!

BTW look at your post http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=87031

who is a SKINFLINT?!?!?!? muhahahahahahahaha you realy make me laugh ...

btw , at the moment they are looking for Part-Time Employees for their Customer Care Team (f/m):

here the job description:

Your Responsibilities

* Answering customer inquiries
* Processing customer orders via e-mail and phone
* Basic technical support
* Time required: 20 hours a week or more

Your Profile

* Great service mentality, ability to think from a customer's perspective
* Excellent communication skills
* Very good English skills (native speakers preferred)
* Experienced in e-mail and telephone customer service
* Familiar with PC/Mac and MS Office software
* Good organizational and analytical skills
* Live users and/or musicians welcomed
* Ability to work independently
* Additional foreign languages advantageous (Japanese, French, Spanish, Italian)
* Frank, friendly and easy-going
* Motivated, results oriented, committed, team player

is that a highly skilled job? i don´t think so

they are also looking for a Team Manager Supply Chain Management (f/m)

the required profile

* Completed studies in business (preferred) with a focus on logistics, completed studies in another field with applicable job experience in logistics, or vocational training as a foreign tradesperson with the accompanying management position in an internationally acting enterprise
* Very good spoken and written English skills
* Analytical way of thinking and feeling for numbers
* Pronounced orientation towards good customer service
* Experience working with prevalent office software programs as well as systems for analyzing inventory
* Ability to work independently, precisely and in an structured manner
* Able to work under pressure, motivated and friendly

why should he have studied business? what a joke, a training on the job in a forwarding agency would be enough for such a job. they could save money and hire developers.

I also have to clarify that i dislike the attitude of NativeBreaks. I dislike words like hating and such, Dom wrote this already. such a behaviour isn´t very cool.

I´ve also researched about the company, maybe you can speak german a bit:

http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldungen ... 32884.html

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachric ... ft-007.htm

http://www.berlinews.de/artikel.php?10958

this company isn´t a startup anymore, their company growth speaks for itself.

"Die Platzierungen basieren auf den kumulierten prozentualen Umsatzwachstumsraten der letzten fünf Jahre, 2001-2005. Die Ableton AG konnte ein Wachstum von über 1.800 Prozent in diesem Zeitraum erzielen. "

in a shortcut: from 2001-2005 they had a growth of more than 1800 %!!!!!

these numbers made an weird impression on me when i hear that they haven´t enough resources. cmon???? we don´t talk politics when we are talking about a company and a product behind it.
Last edited by aleme on Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

aleme
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Post by aleme » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:36 am

i found a press release in english language

http://constructionmarket.blogspot.com/ ... owing.html

don´t be fooled by the cool ableton guys, ableton isn´t a charitable company.

but: I still love my "LIVE" ... :lol:

Robert Henke
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Location: Berlin

Post by Robert Henke » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:16 pm

We never said we are a charity organization. And yes, we had a enormous growth from 2001 to 2005. Does this surprise you? We came out with the first version in 2001! After working on it for 1 1/2 Years on borrowed money. Without that growth we would not be on the market anymore!

As far as the price is concerned, i still think it is reasonable for what you get. People are happy to spend 500 bugs for a plugin, or 3000 bugs for a hardware compressor. And, as you know we give Student discounts, we have a quite liberal unlock policy, we support universites, music schools, etc...

Comparing us with Logic makes no sense at all. Apple could give away Logic for free and still benefit from that. Totally different business model.

And, if you quote our job page, please also quote those:

- Interface Designer (f/m)
- Application Developer (f/m)
- Python Developer (w/m)
- Web Developer (f/m)
- Studentische/r Mitarbeiter/in im Bereich Informatik/Systemintegration


to get a more realistic picture of what kind of resources we are looking for.

Have a nice Christmass !

Robert

SubFunk
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Contact:

Post by SubFunk » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:36 pm

R.H. wrote:
Each release again we try to find a balance between coming up with ideas that are a bit different from what others do
Yo! keep it that way... enough standard DAWs around, a different approach is what i want, too.
*** Image GAFM ***

gennargiu
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Post by gennargiu » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Live Ableton is number one daw music 8) :D :) :lol:
Live Ableton 8.4 (32/64 bit) + Operator - Live Ableton 10 intro - Launchpad S - Windows 10

aleme
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Post by aleme » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:55 pm

Robert Henke wrote:We never said we are a charity organization. And yes, we had a enormous growth from 2001 to 2005. Does this surprise you? We came out with the first version in 2001! After working on it for 1 1/2 Years on borrowed money. Without that growth we would not be on the market anymore!
I haven´t alleged that you said you are a chrity organization. sometimes some of your forum attorneys convey an impression of your company being so small and in need of help. in an economy there needs to be cash flow. you needed investors giving you money. that´s a usal economy procedure. almost all startup companies don´t own equity capital, they have to finance their good ideas. indeed you had a superb idea with live, that´s for sure. of course im not surprised by your succes. thumbs up for that. you also employ people who can pay their rent with their salaries. KUDOS for that!!!!!!!!!

we paying cutomers support that also, that shouldn´t be forogotten that.
Robert Henke wrote:As far as the price is concerned, i still think it is reasonable for what you get. People are happy to spend 500 bugs for a plugin, or 3000 bugs for a hardware compressor. And, as you know we give Student discounts, we have a quite liberal unlock policy, we support universites, music schools, etc...
certainly there would be customers who would find 1500,- for Live still reasonable. no doubts! its a question of personal taste, preferneces ... i´ve also found Live reasonable.
Robert Henke wrote:Comparing us with Logic makes no sense at all. Apple could give away Logic for free and still benefit from that. Totally different business model.
it´s not my intention to compare apples ;-) and oranges, i can´t compare one company with another. that would be the same if i would classifiy people or attitudes. but i can compare features for a given price.

if i am in a market for a new car, i´m of course able to compare features. but i agree with you that i am not able to compare the lifestyle behind something or various business models .

nevertheless, you are marketed in a daw world and you have to permit that sales prospects or existing customers have to compare you with other daws.
Robert Henke wrote: And, if you quote our job page, please also quote those:

- Interface Designer (f/m)
- Application Developer (f/m)
- Python Developer (w/m)
- Web Developer (f/m)
- Studentische/r Mitarbeiter/in im Bereich Informatik/Systemintegration
apologies for not quoting the whole page ;-), it was cust care which was addressed by amberience. maybe i overreacted this time. my fault.



i wish you a merry christmas too.

cmreal04
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:27 am

Post by cmreal04 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:02 pm

All I know is from version 6 to 7 they added drum racks and wanted like 100 bucks from me, which was like I was stealing from them. That added feature alone was worth a lot more. Just because I thought it was such a ridiculous low price for what I received I bought the suite. Do I use the other instruments, no not really, at least not yet, but I support the company that makes the user worflow fun and most fluid and creative. I wish people would stop bitching so much about what classic daw features it doesn't have and realize in many ways that's exactly why the user experience is so damn good. If your so caught up in classical daw features then get lost.

CM
aleme wrote:
leedsquietman wrote:
As for features - there's nothing the OP wanted that hasn't been requested before - just that we understand what it entails and believe it's worth waiting for and don't go crashing in like a noob in a china shop.

:P
i know where you are coming from. but look at the updates. ableton should offer more new features in one version than going to the next and requesting upgrade fees for minimal changes. look at version 6, the last update is 6.0.11, look at v3 last update 3.0.4. it´s only bug fixing, no new features. more than one year is passed by since version 7 came out. where are we today? update 7.0.14. nothing new happened in version 7 (besides fixing bugs). where is version 7.5 with maybe a new function? i can´t find any. that´s poor. some official statements shoud be considered better.

aleme
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Post by aleme » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:18 pm

cmreal04 wrote:All I know is from version 6 to 7 they added drum racks and wanted like 100 bucks from me, which was like I was stealing from them. That added feature alone was worth a lot more. Just because I thought it was such a ridiculous low price for what I received I bought the suite. Do I use the other instruments, no not really, at least not yet, but I support the company that makes the user worflow fun and most fluid and creative. I wish people would stop bitching so much about what classic daw features it doesn't have and realize in many ways that's exactly why the user experience is so damn good. If your so caught up in classical daw features then get lost.

CM
glad to hear that you don´t miss any features. i assume you aren´t using daw software since maybe 10-15 years? i agree to the fact that live has a unique workflow, that circumstance affected my buying decision. but i still have to use other tools wich i would gladly avoid. and that´s my one and only point why i am writing these lines.

btw you bought the suite and you really don´t use the stuff? that´s like buying a ferrari and driving it with 30 mph constantly? shame on you ... ;-)

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