not enough utilites, too many unessecary additions...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:12 pm

you don't yet know how to use what you already have. get racks down (both types), learn midi feedback tricks, make some regenerative ambient sets, all the stuff in the tips n tricks forum, answer a few hundred n00b questions, then you'll see Live's limitations. not to mention midi sync issues with multiple computers, the file manglement system, live looping, automap and so many more.



64 bit summing was bullshit, it has to cost more CPU, does little to nothing for sound quality and certainly took development time. now that Ableton doesn't have 'summing envy' from Sonar, I hope they can get back to blowing our minds with new features.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

aleme
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Post by aleme » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:33 am

Robert Henke wrote:we simply do not have the resources to do so while also working on new ideas that go away from a classical DAW.
Cheers, Robert
but the price for your product is too high for that statement! in my opinion you should have the resources. fire some customer care or other unnecessary business units guys and hire some very good skilled developers.

for all the users saying the op should stfu:

i know here are alot of people totally hyped and addicted by ableton, that´s the reason they come forward as ableton´s attorneys. i think the op has the right to speech for himself and to complain about important but missing features.

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:38 am

He has the right to ask questions and we have the right to tell him to go and suck on his fruity loops. The joys of freedom !

Logic has a multi million dollar corporation behind it in Apple.

Sonar is part owned by Roland

Steinberg is completely owned by Yamaha.

These are companies with megacorps and lots of developers, and years of history and reputation. Ableton has a long way to go to catch up with them. If you don't like the price, there's plenty of choice - buy something else.

As for features - there's nothing the OP wanted that hasn't been requested before - just that we understand what it entails and believe it's worth waiting for and don't go crashing in like a noob in a china shop.

:P
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

aleme
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Post by aleme » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:54 am

leedsquietman wrote:
As for features - there's nothing the OP wanted that hasn't been requested before - just that we understand what it entails and believe it's worth waiting for and don't go crashing in like a noob in a china shop.

:P
i know where you are coming from. but look at the updates. ableton should offer more new features in one version than going to the next and requesting upgrade fees for minimal changes. look at version 6, the last update is 6.0.11, look at v3 last update 3.0.4. it´s only bug fixing, no new features. more than one year is passed by since version 7 came out. where are we today? update 7.0.14. nothing new happened in version 7 (besides fixing bugs). where is version 7.5 with maybe a new function? i can´t find any. that´s poor. some official statements shoud be considered better.

ilia
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Post by ilia » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:52 am

Robert Henke wrote:Hi NativeBreaks,

a lot of your wishes are our own wishes too, and we will step by step try to come up with solutions for them. Each release again we try to find a balance between coming up with ideas that are a bit different from what others do, between offering features a classic DAW user expects and between cleaning up things we did in the past and want to work better in the future. If you expect us to integrate all features of a classic DAW in the near future you will be disappointed, we simply do not have the resources to do so while also working on new ideas that go away from a classical DAW.
Robert --

I think the primary motivation behind users asking for fuller classic DAW functionality is the desire to use Live as their main -- and only -- DAW. I think many long-term Live users like myself were initially attracted by Live's original workflow and performance features and thought of it as an additional production tool in the studio context. As time passed and we grew to rely on Live more and more for production and composition, we were hoping (and then expecting) that subsequent versions would fill the DAW feature gaps. As it is at the end of 2008, Live is frustratingly close to having fundamental DAW functionality -- close but not quite there. The need to maintain a balance between original ideas, classical DAW functionality and internal improvements is perfectly understandable, and I am not talking about a huge feature set of today's mature DAWs -- I am talking about basic necessary editing capabilities. As an example, consider the original Sonic Foundry Vegas. As of version 1.0 (released in 2000, I believe), it had fades and auto-crossfades with multiple selectable curves, audio event grouping, and multiple take comping, all quite elegantly implemented. While Live has plenty of advanced features, this basic functionality -- unexciting, mundane, but extremely useful in the studio -- is still lacking, and there are no workarounds, no third-party tools that can alleviate that. Perhaps saying "auto-crossfades" or "event grouping" on the box is not particularly sexy and won't immediately attract many new customers these days, but these are important to many people doing extensive studio work and it's about time Live provides them.

aleme
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Post by aleme » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:06 am

ilia wrote: I think the primary motivation behind users asking for fuller classic DAW functionality is the desire to use Live as their main -- and only -- DAW.
word
+1

that´s ecaxtly the point why I think that Live´s pricing should be considered. If Ableton thinks Live´s an Live-Instrument-addon to complement the bigger and older daws, then they really have to do make a price-cutting. Otherwise it´ll be hard to obtain new customers or new customers crossgrading to Live. obtaining new customer is vital for a company, otherwise there will be no new capital for further developments and this will affect old users too. I love live, but there is really a lot of work to do to be my one and only daw.

Poster
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Post by Poster » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:27 am

Macrostructure wrote:Native Breaks style reminds me of someone who got banned recently
+1..

pepezabala
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Post by pepezabala » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:38 am

If you can make better beats with fruity loops, then do it. If you can mix better with logic, do it. If you can do professional recording only with pro tools, then buy pro tools for your professional studio.

I would like to see Live standing out as something unique also in the future. Main characteristics for me are the non-destructive use of audiofiles and the approach to access all functionalities live, without stopping playback. The elegant interface.

And there is still enough work to do. Slicing isn't realtime. I get audio-dropouts when dragging in certain devices or duplicating tracks ... there are some essential features lacking for live looping...

eddu
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Post by eddu » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:01 am

aleme wrote:
ilia wrote: I think the primary motivation behind users asking for fuller classic DAW functionality is the desire to use Live as their main -- and only -- DAW.
word
+1

that´s ecaxtly the point why I think that Live´s pricing should be considered. If Ableton thinks Live´s an Live-Instrument-addon to complement the bigger and older daws, then they really have to do make a price-cutting. Otherwise it´ll be hard to obtain new customers or new customers crossgrading to Live. obtaining new customer is vital for a company, otherwise there will be no new capital for further developments and this will affect old users too. I love live, but there is really a lot of work to do to be my one and only daw.
I am a bit sorry but i have to count me in on this. Recently i had to chose between buying Live or another host. My job is basically making music. I sadly had to reject the Live option, cause i cant produce everything there. I love the company and the product but i think there are quite a lot of potential users/buyers there in the same situation as me (they cant buy it cause its not a complete DAW) Its a pity Ableton cant get all of this money from the studio guys.

If, as Robert said, its a matter of resources i am not really sure on this but maybe it was worth hiring more people on Ableton so that the product evolves in both directions a the same time. Then you have 2 different cash flows (DAW and not DAW users) and you can cover these extra resources used + you gain a legion of faithful customers that probably will stick to Live forever. Well..dreaming is free...

After all i felt so bad when the money ended up into Yamaha´s pocket.. :(

Macrostructure
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Post by Macrostructure » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:48 am

Speaking from experience, if you want to perform your own original music compositions genuinely live there is only one choice of software, and it's still, after six years, Ableton Live.

Also speaking from experience, it continues to be much easier to produce the right raw material for those performances in Live itself, than in another package and transfer across.

I successfully produced music with Live 2 when it didn't even have pretentions to being a DAW, and found it perfectly adequate. I wrote my best track ever in Live 3 and have never performed it live as it's too complex to give a worthy live re-interpretation, I feel. Perversely this is pretty impressive in a weird way for a non-DAW package.

For the record I also produced last year's EP in Live 5 & 6 and the one thing people always remark on is the production quality. Only part of that is down to me as a producer - some is due to the power and flexibility of the software.

I wouldn't play out live with anything else.

It's worth making the point that if you have good music and good skills then you can make music with a broken three stringed guitar and a dustbin lid.

eddu
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Post by eddu » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:41 am

I am not saying you cant make good tracks with Live, i have been doing it for years, just since i begun composing as a my regular job. I did mostly electronic stuff where Live rocks (i also have not found anything better in this sense). If i was still making only this kinda music i´d probably stick to Live only.

BUT when you have to compose EVERY style, you miss things. Try to compose a big band tune with all the instruments of the ensemble on its individual track, or try to make a full orchestral score, with 4 fully loaded Kontakts and tons of MIDI info, complex routings, etc. It´s not easy with Live. Trust me i tried to do it at the very beginning cause i am in love with Live´s workflow but its simply not made for that. Its not a competitive DAW in this sense yet.

I agree with you on your last sentence but, sorry, its not a valid argument here. ;)

photonal
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Post by photonal » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:51 am

personally I'd be happy if the Ableton Sample File search engine would work better. I recently moved my library to another disk - so now everytime I want to use e.g. a sampler preset, live can't find the samples so I have to tell live to go and find it. *But* the live search engine is *so* inefficient/slow it's quicker to go into the finder, use spotlight to find the sample and then go back into live to tell it where to look!!!

It would be great if ableton could perhaps create an *index* of a sample directory or the library to speed up sample searching.

or have I missed something here which I should be setting?
Last edited by photonal on Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Macrostructure
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Post by Macrostructure » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:53 am

eddu wrote:I am not saying you cant make good tracks with Live, i have been doing it for years, just since i begun composing as a my regular job. I did mostly electronic stuff where Live rocks (i also have not found anything better in this sense). If i was still making only this kinda music i´d probably stick to Live only.

BUT when you have to compose EVERY style, you miss things. Try to compose a big band tune with all the instruments of the ensemble on its individual track, or try to make a full orchestral score, with 4 fully loaded Kontakts and tons of MIDI info, complex routings, etc. It´s not easy with Live. Trust me i tried to do it at the very beginning cause i am in love with Live´s workflow but its simply not made for that. Its not a competitive DAW in this sense yet.

I agree with you on your last sentence but, sorry, its not a valid argument here. ;)
hmm...that's interesting :) every day is a schoolday

dom
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Re: not enough utilites, too many unessecary additions...

Post by dom » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:54 am

NativeBreaks wrote: Watch out Ableton, I'm gonna be your most hated user on the forum very soon. Not because I'm a pain in the ass, BUT I WILL BE MAKING WAY TO MANY GOOD VALID POINTS....
Same IP, slighlty different name:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=16

same thread, one day later:

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=59

As your former account was already deactivated because of intolerable racist comments and you denying to edit them i would have to deactive your new account right away.
However, as christmas time is just starting i'm willing to give you a second chance - even after all the racist and nazi insults you sent me personally via email to @ableton.com.

Use it.

My suggestion: Try to behave, build up a reputation and become contributing part of the community instead of your mission statement trying to become a hated person - you've already been there and the next deactivation will be without warning for a day.

Dom
ableton support team
support@ableton.com

eddu
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Post by eddu » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:06 pm

WHAT!!?!?! 8O Racist? Insults?

Dom you are too kind if you ask me...

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