is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

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is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

yes
87
70%
no
37
30%
 
Total votes: 124

knotkranky
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is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

Post by knotkranky » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:10 am

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/ ... index.html


Israel vows to keep up Gaza attacks through the night

* Story Highlights
* NEW: Death toll climbs to 225, 400 injured as airstrikes continue through night
* NEW: Arab League wants U.N. Security Council to intervene
Israeli Defense Minister says attacks will go on until Hamas changes behavior
* One Israeli killed in rocket attack reported by Hamas military wing, sources say

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israeli airstrikes pounded Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 225 and injuring 400, in what Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said was a response to escalating rocket attacks against Israel.

Yet Hamas blamed Israel for the artillery exchange, accusing it of violating a cease-fire intended to stem violence in the region.

Barak said the Israeli attacks would continue as long as necessary until Hamas militants were ready to "change their behavior."

"This will not be a short operation. The war on terrorism is an ongoing one, and we will have to stand firm in order to change the situation in the south," Barak said Saturday. An Egypt-brokered cease-fire between Hamas and Israel expired December 19.

Barak told CNN that Israel was compelled to respond with force after evacuating Gaza three years ago "to the last square inch" only to face continuous attacks.

"We have to experience shelling and rocket attacks on innocent civilians, that's something we will not accept," he told CNN. "I am confident that the American government would not have waited one day before they would have responded if San Diego [California] would have been bombed or shelled or rocketed from Tijuana [Mexico] with thousands of rockets."

Hamas vowed to retaliate. Read reactions to Israel's strike on Gaza »

"We will stand up, we will defend our own people, we will defend our land, and we will not give up," senior Hamas spokesman Osama Hamdan said.

Hamdan also denied accusations that Hamas had provoked Israel attacks by violating the cease-fire with rocket attacks.

"Hamas did not fire rockets through the cease-fire. It's clear that the one who violated the cease-fire is the Israelis," Hamdan told CNN. "For half the period of cease-fire, they closed all the checkpoints, and they killed 28 Palestinians."

Tensions had been building between Hamas and Israel despite the six-month truce. The tenuous agreement was weakened in recent weeks as violence escalated.

The Arab League condemned the attacks and scheduled an emergency meeting in Cairo, Egypt, on Sunday to discuss the situation. The meeting is set for 7 p.m. (noon ET).

"The situation is lending itself to escalation," Secretary General Amr Moussa told CNN International. "The attacks have resulted in casualties among the civilians, among the young, among the population." VideoWatch Moussa's interview with CNN International »

Moussa said the Arab League would call on the U.N. Security Council to issue a statement or resolution calling on all parties to cease fire and enter into mediation.

"Also, we are calling on the Palestinians to close ranks and stop feuds between different organizations in Palestine," Moussa said, referring to struggles between warring factions struggling for power

Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi also accused Israel of ignoring the terms of the cease-fire that expired December 19.

"This is certainly a very cruel escalation, a relentless bombardment of a captive civilian population that has already been under siege for months, that has been deprived of basic requirements like food and medicines and fuel and power," she said from Ramallah in the West Bank. VideoWatch Ashrawi condemn the airstrikes »

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said the United States places the blame for the Israeli military action squarely on Hamas.

"We want the cease-fire to be restored, but we understand that Israel is reacting to the hundreds of rockets that have been fired upon the innocent people of Israel over the last few days," he said. "Hamas must end its terrorist activities if it wishes to play a role in the future of the Palestinian people." VideoWatch Johndroe comment on the attacks »

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice also called for the cease-fire to be restored.

"We strongly condemn the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and hold Hamas responsible for breaking the cease-fire and for the renewal of violence there. The cease-fire must be restored immediately and fully respected," he said.

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was "deeply alarmed" and called for "an immediate halt to all violence," a spokesman said in a statement.

Israeli military officials accused Hamas militants of firing more than 65 rockets into southern Israel on Wednesday, and the Israeli air force said it killed a Hamas militant whom it accused of helping launch the rockets against Israel.

The Israeli Defense Forces said Israeli aircraft were attacking "a series of Hamas targets and infrastructure facilities," including headquarters, training camps and weaponry storage warehouses. Map »

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called for patience, insisting that Israel wants to avoid causing an "humanitarian disaster" in Gaza.

"The instructions that we have given to our forces are to refrain from inflicting injury and harm on the innocent," he said at a news conference with Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni.

Yet scores of deaths and injuries have been claimed on both sides as aid organizations urged Israel to cease the attacks.

An Israeli woman was killed Saturday when a rocket fired from Gaza hit a house in Netivot in southern Israel, about six miles east of Gaza, Israeli police spokesman Mickey Rosenfeld said. Two other Israelis were in "medium to serious" condition at Soroko Hospital in Bersheba, he said.

Palestinian medical sources said 110 people were hospitalized in Gaza on Saturday in serious to critical condition.

Hospitals were being overwhelmed with patients and were running out of space and supplies.

"The hospital is not accustomed to accept mass casualties like this," said Dr. Mahmoud el-Khazndar, who works in Gaza City's Shifa Hospital. He said he had treated at least half a dozen children.

"Hundreds of people come suddenly to the hospital ... I believe more than 500 people or more due to this action. Really, the hospital is in need, in short supply of everything ... to treat these injured people," the physician said.

Wounded people could be seen lying in the streets of Gaza City, and passers-by were doing what they could to summon help. VideoWatch panicked Palestinians try to help the wounded »

The U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees urged the Israeli government to stop its bombardment.

"UNRWA recognizes Israel's legitimate security concerns. However, its actions should be in conformity with international humanitarian law, and it should not use disproportionate force," the agency said in a news release.

Saeb Erakat, adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, urged Israeli and Hamas leaders to put another cease-fire in place.

"I believe this is the only way out. I don't think this problem can be solved through military means," he told CNN. "I don't think it can be solved through aggression, through violence. Violence will breed more violence."

Abbas' Fatah party government is locked in a power struggle with the Hamas movement.

On Friday, Israel opened three border crossings for the first time in 10 days to allow food, medical supplies and other humanitarian goods into Gaza, but Palestinian rocket attacks continued.

A Gaza-based reporter, whose name is being withheld for security reasons, said a number of Hamas police stations were hit Saturday, killing some senior police commanders.

Palestinian Maj. Gen. Tawfeeq Al-Jaber, a senior commander in the Hamas police force, was killed, as was Ismail Jabari, who headed the special police force in Gaza, Palestinian sources said.

CNN's Kevin Flower and Elise Labott contributed to this report.

All AboutGaza • Israel • Hamas

j2j
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Post by j2j » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:39 am

All the violence in this world is crazy. The history of man is framed in violence. I have a hard time seeing one act of violence, to be any more violent then the next.

For example:

Palestinians kill 10 innocent victims on Friday, the Israelis kill twelve innocent victims on Saturday....

Was the violence disproportionate? Perhaps, it was just violence.

As human beings we are drowning in violence. We have been for millennia, and I guess we will be for millennia.

It is a sad truth but in the end, the violence must stop. We must realize all acts of violence are perhaps equally violent, and come to a path of enlightenment together.

So, to answer the question:

I think the news media is out for ratings, and all violence harms life. I do not think that death and destruction can be disproportionate by definition. By which I mean, we do not have levels of death. Death is not an acute condition that may need minor, or major surgery. It is just death. It has one level, and one result.

Birth, breathing, blood, and death are the same for all. Like the stars, the moon, and the sky. We all are connected to the disasters of our species, and we all must realize this if we are to move on.
too many lasers...

funky shit
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Post by funky shit » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:22 am

Wish everyone would just wise them selfs.
Whats the fucking point?
Enjoy yourself and let everyone else do the same.
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leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:26 am

it's all just very sad and all this violence has lead to NOTHING. No resolutions worth a damn that stuck, no compromises that couldn't be kept for longer than a couple of weeks, it's just meaningless violence. These people have died for nothing, most of them are probably innocent of any major wrongdoing.
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condra
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Post by condra » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:32 am

j2j wrote: For example:

Palestinians kill 10 innocent victims on Friday, the Israelis kill twelve innocent victims on Saturday.....
In fairness, that would be a ratio of 6:5, which is "proportionate" by most peoples standards.

What has happened in the last couple of days was a MASSCRE.

Fuck genocidal Israel and shame on all who support it.

CHARLIE!
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Post by CHARLIE! » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:54 am

Well what I think is lost on this discussion is most of the violence is towards a military force that is attacking israel on a daily basis. If the canadian army started launching missiles at the US you think for a second they wouldn't be bombed back to the stone age?

I think its a sad story because the tactics used by hamas put innocents in harms way but it doesnt change the fact that they are a military force attacking another country... what is israel to do ? just take it?

smutek
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Post by smutek » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:07 am

The Israeli response has never been proportionate, restrained, or humane in any way.

funky shit
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Post by funky shit » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:15 am

Cant believe we are talking about proportionate killing.

Fuck both sides.
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smutek
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Post by smutek » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:46 am

Can someone please find the list of Israeli casualties from the Hamas rocket attacks over the last 4 days?

Everything that I can find is telling me there was 4 wounded and 1 dead as a result of the Hamas rocket attacks.

In response the Israeli's have dropped 100 tons of bombs into one of the most crowded places on earth, killing over 200 people and wounding around 700.

American made bombs dropped from American made F-16's.

It really isn't about "fuck both sides".

It's about a massacre.

Another massacre committed by Israel, another massacre that will be overlooked, justified, and forgotten.

funky shit
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Post by funky shit » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:57 am

smutek wrote:Can someone please find the list of Israeli casualties from the Hamas rocket attacks over the last 4 days?

Everything that I can find is telling me there was 4 wounded and 1 dead as a result of the Hamas rocket attacks.

In response the Israeli's have dropped 100 tons of bombs into one of the most crowded places on earth, killing over 200 people and wounding around 700.

American made bombs dropped from American made F-16's.

It really isn't about "fuck both sides".

It's about a massacre.

Another massacre committed by Israel, another massacre that will be overlooked, justified, and forgotten.
Well for me it is.

both sides beings the likes of the USA, israel, UK etc
the others being pakistan, iran afghanistan etc.
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leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:16 am

I;m neutral in this and being that I am neither Jewish, Palestinian or have any decendency from either background, I just feel sorry for ALL the people who are dying while idiots on both sides of the divide try to bully their opponent into concessions in a pool of innocent blood.

Hamas - whatever their justification is for attacking Israel, they ought to know by now that it gets returned with interest, so it's just pissing in the wind. Give it up already, you can never win, unless you get hold of nukes. Then you will get retribution from the western world if you should ever employ them.

Israel - stop blanket bombing whole areas, you might be taking down a few 'terrorists' but you are probably taking 2-3 times more innocent people who are just trying to get by in their lives. Don't launch unprovoked attacks and patrols for 'posturing' either, adding fuel to the flame.

After the best part of 50 years of wars and fighting, it should be patently obvious to all by now that there are no solutions and no winners in this, only losers. The losers being the poor victims who are dying and losing loved ones over some political BS.
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smutek
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Post by smutek » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:27 am

funky shit wrote: Well for me it is.

both sides beings the likes of the USA, israel, UK etc
the others being pakistan, iran afghanistan etc.
I think I understand your sentiment, I think it's maybe too simplistic, but in a sense I agree. It's always innocent people who are hurt the most in these power struggles.

But Israel is wrong.

I read Martin Gilberts "the Holcaust" and it reaffirms my deep sorrow, compassion and sympathy for the great tragedy of the Jewish people, one of the vilest tragedy's ever perpetrated against any people, anywhere.

Then I read accounts of the massacre at Quana, and so many other stories, like the one we are reading today, and I wonder; How can the children of the Holocaust be so cruel?

1 dead and 4 wounded compared to 200 and counting dead, 700 and counting wounded.

This is the "early stages" of the operation. The ground offensive will come next.

There is no excuse for the misery and suffering that is constantly and unceasingly inflicted on the Palestinian people. I am filled with sorrow, and with contempt towards the state of Israel, and towards my own leaders for continuing to support and fund it, and towards my own countrymen for being so incredibly, blissfully ignorant of it.

This is a long quote, but I think it is appropriate.

"My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and in-human to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colourable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home including Palestine not by aggre-ssion but by loving service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done to enrich the world’s literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine, agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jew can refuse to be treated as the outcaste of the West, to be despised or patronized. He can command the attention and respect of the world by being man, the chosen creation of God, instead of being man who is fast sinking to the brute and forsaken by God. They can add to their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action."

Mahatma Gandhi

SEGAON, November 20, 1938
Harijan, 26-11-1938
(Vol. 74, pp. 239-242)


Nothing more for me to say about this I suppose.

pimpleburger
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Post by pimpleburger » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:38 am

Once you awaken the survival mechanisms, the desparate survivalism of people living in a war zone then learn to expect a resonse from these people to be violent, extreme and beyond anything you have seen.

Israel is shaping its enemies and draging its humanity down by acts of unkindness, violence and the grief it creates in its survivors. My biggest wish would be for Isreal to allow Palestinians to have a normal and comprehensive education system and to live in peace.

I can't say that I want to endorse one side over the other. I will say that the poison created in that part of the world threatens to have consequences in the civilised world. Either we are heading to enlightenment or we are heading toward war and violence.

When I think of people from western democratic countries joining the army and finishing their tours of duty and then killing themselves it makes me very sad. We don't even know how to switch off the survival mechanisms in our soldiers let alone help Israeli and Palestinian people to do so.

The best response for Isreal is to elevate its own people and their enemies until peaceful communication and goodwill can be established.

Peace,
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Y'all take care now!

Emissary
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Post by Emissary » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:20 am

israel created another 500 terrorists/freedom fighters today. how stupid do you have to be to do something like this. either that or they are incredibly devious

Chang
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Post by Chang » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:55 am

CHARLIE! wrote:Well what I think is lost on this discussion is most of the violence is towards a military force that is attacking israel on a daily basis. If the canadian army started launching missiles at the US you think for a second they wouldn't be bombed back to the stone age?

I think its a sad story because the tactics used by hamas put innocents in harms way but it doesnt change the fact that they are a military force attacking another country... what is israel to do ? just take it?

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