is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

yes
87
70%
no
37
30%
 
Total votes: 124

gjm
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:53 am

Post by gjm » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:03 pm

smutek wrote:
Chang wrote:All Israel wants is peace and to be left alone, they've been persecuted for thousands of years.
Israel has been in existence since 1948.
...currently in existence since 1948.
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:11 pm

smutek wrote:
Chang wrote:All Israel wants is peace and to be left alone, they've been persecuted for thousands of years.
Israel has been in existence since 1948.
Chang wrote: Hamas would be carpet bombing israel 24/7 with no regard for anything.
Why does that sound familiar?

Its all perception. I already make case for occupation in previous post. Israel as a place now since 1948 yes. Israel as a place named by the jews during uprising against the romans, 2000 years ago. The jewish people were living there then and 1,000 years before then, rome the occupying totalitarian force at the time threw the jews out and beat kill them. So what of that? Thats ok then?

On second comment that ridiculous even you cannot believe. Hamas with all of Israels military technology with roles reversed and you think the death toll would be 300 people? That is a ridiculous thought. More like 300 thousand dead on front page today.
Last edited by Chang on Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11082
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:13 pm

swett wrote:
3dot... wrote:I will leave this region in the next year as there is no hope in living here...
I would take my family with... ..
Not to Costa Rica, I hope....


I don't wish any ill will on 3dot. You really don't change the world in any way shape or form by hating on people you brand as evil. In fact it's my assertion that most violent acts worldwide are caused by somebody pointing at another person and branding them evil, instead of human. Easier to kill someone if you think they are to root cause of suffering etc.

Seattle is pretty cool 3dot, cheap enough for a metropolitan city with a small but prevalent jewish community, and a liberal bias. Enough work, (though slow right now), and a couple big companies that should survive any economic turmoil brewing.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11082
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:25 pm

Chang wrote: Israel as a place named by the jews during uprising against the romans, 2000 years ago. The jewish people were living there then and before then, rome the occupying totalitarian force at the time threw the jews out and beat kill them. So what of that? Thats ok then?
First off regardless of suffering by Rome, the reasons behind jewish migration throughout europe were directly tied to usury laws put in place by a misguided pope, basically at one point no christian could loan money. Jewish people were begged into kingdoms across europe, as their religion was the only one besides christianity that was "OK". Of course corrupt kings and politicians would immediately blame the "jewish bankers" for their own destruction of the local economy etc. so the pogroms and mistrust of jews in europe began, and fermented into the Holocaust.
The reasonable thing to do afterwards would have been to admit fault and repay the relatives of those that were killed, yet what happened was an english politician ( a thread is appearing here! ) proposed they be given some property currently ruled by the UK. Installing yet another ethnic and religious country in the middle of one of colonialism's muddiest messes. :?

Simplification for sure, but to think that 100% jewish people were driven from Israel is wrong. I would move to Belgium in a second if I was told I had a +200K job waiting there.

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by beats me » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:27 pm

There's a cement slab in my parent's backyard that clearly has "Mike 1986" carved into it and since then we have defended that slab to the death as will future generations. Sure there are other slabs in the world but it is undeniable that this slab was poured for my people.

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:38 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Chang wrote: Israel as a place named by the jews during uprising against the romans, 2000 years ago. The jewish people were living there then and before then, rome the occupying totalitarian force at the time threw the jews out and beat kill them. So what of that? Thats ok then?
First off regardless of suffering by Rome, the reasons behind jewish migration throughout europe were directly tied to usury laws put in place by a misguided pope, basically at one point no christian could loan money. Jewish people were begged into kingdoms across europe, as their religion was the only one besides christianity that was "OK". Of course corrupt kings and politicians would immediately blame the "jewish bankers" for their own destruction of the local economy etc. so the pogroms and mistrust of jews in europe began, and fermented into the Holocaust.
The reasonable thing to do afterwards would have been to admit fault and repay the relatives of those that were killed, yet what happened was an english politician ( a thread is appearing here! ) proposed they be given some property currently ruled by the UK. Installing yet another ethnic and religious country in the middle of one of colonialism's muddiest messes. :?

Simplification for sure, but to think that 100% jewish people were driven from Israel is wrong. I would move to Belgium in a second if I was told I had a +200K job waiting there.

I understand. My point is only that many lands are occupied all across the earth by people who have been living there for only 200 hundred years or so, Australia for example englands penal colony. English had never been there, didn't belong there whatsoever. The Jews on the other hand were in Israel 3000 + years ago and lived there on that land for a thousand years in peace until Roman occupation.
The arguments about 1948 acts as if the Jews had no history whatsoever with that land. That seem to be attitude running. And that is simply not true. The Jews lived on that land for longer than the US, Canada and Australia have been in existence combined.

ChiDJ
Posts: 2241
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:59 pm
Location: CHick-A-Go!
Contact:

Post by ChiDJ » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:56 pm

It occurs to me that we have two very different value systems:

When you have a society that glorifies martyrs and suicide versus the views of the west which values human life, the scales of morality cannot be balanced.

Palestine glorifies their people when they purposely sacrifice their lives for the honor of islam. Then they strike at our morality citing the innocents that were killed to play on our western heart strings.

You can't have it both ways. Either treasure human life or use it as a tool. NOT BOTH.

This is the game of the Hamas.

Just my .02.
"Let you're body feel the sound! Let it cover you up and down!"

Image

forge
Posts: 17422
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:47 am
Location: Queensland, AU
Contact:

Post by forge » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:14 am

3dot... wrote:the Jewish people have been thrown out of this region
once...
by the greek...
twice...
by the Romans...

they have always come back here

it is our only home... and we originate HERE....

all of our history and heritage are here...

it has been proven...

that is mostly why we were 'given' this country...

what you see now is ancient hatred acting up....

and is the same reason the Jews were persecuted everywhere they go...

they have kept their faith....
for thousands of years while past empires also tried to 'divide' and conquer...
jews kept their faith wherever they went...

"by the rivers of Babylon ... where we sat down... and then we wept... when we remembered Zion..."

there are people from all over the world living here...

because it is their home...

it sure as hell ain't because it's a cushy place....
now, I'm not totally unsympathetic to the Israeli predicament here, I can see that both sides are at fault in some way, but I don't really get this argument

by that reasoning then The entire African American population of the US would have a claim over the various African countries they were kidnapped from.....in fact there are so many similar situations to this I won't even begin to list them - I'm just saying that while the stuff that the Jews had to endure in WW2 was hideous by any standards, what about the countless other people throughout history that have suffered similar fates? Why weren't they given some land somewhere?

There have been many displaced people throughout history, and to put it more bluntly, the Native Australians were here for anything ranging from 60,000 to 120, 000 years - even though they are still on the same continent, many of them are not on their ancestral lands, alot of which now has white people's houses on it

the native Americans something similar - tens of thousands of years

giving Israel to the Jews would be similar to the modern governments of those countries just handing them back - obviously that would be insane because so much water has gone under the bridge and so many people have moved to these countries and have property since then

you could look at it as why do the Jews have more of a voice than all of these other persecuted and oppressed people the world over? Seriously NOBODY gives a fuck what happens in Sudan or Rwanda or in remote Aboriginal communities - well, that's not true plenty give a fuck, but nobody does anything about it

of course, none of this helps the situation now, but I have just never understood this reasoning

swett
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Costa Rica/ Oregon

Post by swett » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:50 am

forge wrote:
you could look at it as why do the Jews have more of a voice than all of these other persecuted and oppressed people the world over? Seriously NOBODY gives a fuck what happens in Sudan or Rwanda or in remote Aboriginal communities - well, that's not true plenty give a fuck, but nobody does anything about it

$$$

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:37 am

forge wrote:
3dot... wrote:the Jewish people have been thrown out of this region
once...
by the greek...
twice...
by the Romans...

they have always come back here

it is our only home... and we originate HERE....

all of our history and heritage are here...

it has been proven...

that is mostly why we were 'given' this country...

what you see now is ancient hatred acting up....

and is the same reason the Jews were persecuted everywhere they go...

they have kept their faith....
for thousands of years while past empires also tried to 'divide' and conquer...
jews kept their faith wherever they went...

"by the rivers of Babylon ... where we sat down... and then we wept... when we remembered Zion..."

there are people from all over the world living here...

because it is their home...

it sure as hell ain't because it's a cushy place....
now, I'm not totally unsympathetic to the Israeli predicament here, I can see that both sides are at fault in some way, but I don't really get this argument

by that reasoning then The entire African American population of the US would have a claim over the various African countries they were kidnapped from.....in fact there are so many similar situations to this I won't even begin to list them - I'm just saying that while the stuff that the Jews had to endure in WW2 was hideous by any standards, what about the countless other people throughout history that have suffered similar fates? Why weren't they given some land somewhere?

There have been many displaced people throughout history, and to put it more bluntly, the Native Australians were here for anything ranging from 60,000 to 120, 000 years - even though they are still on the same continent, many of them are not on their ancestral lands, alot of which now has white people's houses on it

the native Americans something similar - tens of thousands of years

giving Israel to the Jews would be similar to the modern governments of those countries just handing them back - obviously that would be insane because so much water has gone under the bridge and so many people have moved to these countries and have property since then


of course, none of this helps the situation now, but I have just never understood this reasoning

The reasoning is two fold imo. First, as said a million times the jews have been there forever but there was no official state. After WWII and hundreds of years of persecution going back to crusades and rome they were given an official state on the land they had been on forever anyway. All the displaced Jews around the world finally had land back where they had lived over 1000 years.

The bottom line is all about religious hatred and non tolerance and Hamas is at the helm. Where else do you see this? Are the native americans launching rockets into washington dc every day? are the australian aborigines lobbing rocket and sending in suicide bombers into Sydney australia every day etc? No. Somehow they all get along with the occupiers. The commonwealth of australia was finally formed in 1901 to be officially recognized as a unified nation. Does everyone respect Australia as a nation filled with occupiers for the most part? Yes. Why then not respect Israels right as a nation formed only 47 years after australia? Especially when white englishmen do not belong in australia. But jews do belong in Israel and have long history there. I'm not understanding that even a tiny bit of this even 1 percent you say ok i kind of see what your saying.

3dot...
Posts: 9996
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Post by 3dot... » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:42 am

swett wrote:
3dot... wrote:I will leave this region in the next year as there is no hope in living here...
I would take my family with... ..
Not to Costa Rica, I hope....
no... not to that backwards island...

although I have a friend that owns a diving club down there....
Last edited by 3dot... on Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

3dot...
Posts: 9996
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Post by 3dot... » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:49 am

Chang wrote:
forge wrote:
3dot... wrote:the Jewish people have been thrown out of this region
once...
by the greek...
twice...
by the Romans...

they have always come back here

it is our only home... and we originate HERE....

all of our history and heritage are here...

it has been proven...

that is mostly why we were 'given' this country...

what you see now is ancient hatred acting up....

and is the same reason the Jews were persecuted everywhere they go...

they have kept their faith....
for thousands of years while past empires also tried to 'divide' and conquer...
jews kept their faith wherever they went...

"by the rivers of Babylon ... where we sat down... and then we wept... when we remembered Zion..."

there are people from all over the world living here...

because it is their home...

it sure as hell ain't because it's a cushy place....
now, I'm not totally unsympathetic to the Israeli predicament here, I can see that both sides are at fault in some way, but I don't really get this argument

by that reasoning then The entire African American population of the US would have a claim over the various African countries they were kidnapped from.....in fact there are so many similar situations to this I won't even begin to list them - I'm just saying that while the stuff that the Jews had to endure in WW2 was hideous by any standards, what about the countless other people throughout history that have suffered similar fates? Why weren't they given some land somewhere?

There have been many displaced people throughout history, and to put it more bluntly, the Native Australians were here for anything ranging from 60,000 to 120, 000 years - even though they are still on the same continent, many of them are not on their ancestral lands, alot of which now has white people's houses on it

the native Americans something similar - tens of thousands of years

giving Israel to the Jews would be similar to the modern governments of those countries just handing them back - obviously that would be insane because so much water has gone under the bridge and so many people have moved to these countries and have property since then


of course, none of this helps the situation now, but I have just never understood this reasoning

The reasoning is two fold imo. First, as said a million times the jews have been there forever but there was no official state. After WWII and hundreds of years of persecution going back to crusades and rome they were given an official state on the land they had been on forever anyway. All the displaced Jews around the world finally had land back where they had lived over 1000 years.

The bottom line is all about religious hatred and non tolerance and Hamas is at the helm. Where else do you see this? Are the native americans launching rockets into washington dc every day? are the australian aborigines lobbing rocket and sending in suicide bombers into Sydney australia every day etc? No. Somehow they all get along with the occupiers. The commonwealth of australia was finally formed in 1901 to be officially recognized as a unified nation. Does everyone respect Australia as a nation filled with occupiers for the most part? Yes. Why then not respect Israels right as a nation formed only 47 years after australia? Especially when white englishmen do not belong in australia. But jews do belong in Israel and have long history there. I'm not understanding that even a tiny bit of this even 1 percent you say ok i kind of see what your saying.
you express yourself much better then I do...
that is exactly what I meant...

http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/m ... nglish.pdf
Image

swett
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Costa Rica/ Oregon

Post by swett » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:38 am

3dot... wrote:
swett wrote:
3dot... wrote:I will leave this region in the next year as there is no hope in living here...
I would take my family with... ..
Not to Costa Rica, I hope....
no... not to that backwards island...

although I have a friend that owns a diving club down there....
The funny thing is that I'm sure that most of the Israelis that have moved down there, those people with lots of money buying land like crazy, walking around like they own the place, looking down at the locals and everybody else, probably also think that Costa Rica is an island....


Look at a map 3dot. Costa Rica is a little country surrounded by a war torn Latinoamerica...and yet, we don't even have an army! (get it?!?) Nobody is gonna invade us because we are peace people.

Your part of the world hasn't gotten it together for fucking ever! And you've been fighting over chuncks of desert for crying out loud!!

You think it makes me happy to read about that shit in the newspaper EVERY DAY of every month of every year? I'm very far away from where you are, but it pains me to think about the kids in both sides of that mess.

WAR
IS NOT
THE
ANSWER.

beats me
Posts: 23319
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm

Post by beats me » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:07 pm

Last night I traced my family tree back about 2000 years and it turns out my ancesters lived on the land that happens to be where hoffman2k is currently residing. I'm going to need him to move out by next Tuesday.

kpa
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Post by kpa » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:35 pm

the thing that gets me is the irony of it all. and the hypocracy.
isreal is a country founded by a terrorist group of zionists who ,after a terrorist uprising, overthrew the british/american leadership who controlled the area. the allies let them keep it in a settlement as the holocaust was a bad thing and the world had to feel sorry.
then isreal builds the worlds (and history's) biggest concentration camp to house those people which the newly self appointed zionist government doesnt really want to have a round so they cant voice their (justifiably) annoyed concerns.

you would assume that after what had happened to the jews in ww2, those who relocated to 'israel' from europe would be a bit more open to loving each other and understanding others rights and opinions instead of saying, we are right, everyone who disagrees is wrong and doesnt deserve any human rights.

i have visited a few concentration camps in europe and when you see what went on, the only reaction you can have is one of horror, piontlessness, and then to hope that is doesnt happen again. you would think that if you managed to survive what went on, you would try and change things for the good, not take it out on whoever is weaker than you.

i saw the isreally foreign minister woman on tv the other day defending the actions, and what if she was an ss concentration camp officer defending the actions of the nazi soldiers who would beat the camp inmates if the tried to escape or beat up the guards, what would be the world reaction to her exclamation that they had to do something?


its a difficult situation, one with no real solution, and isreal dont really want a solution because they would only lose out in some way. but when iran gets sufficiently pissed off with the continous murder of its innocent islamic brothers and joins in then its just tough luck, really. like when a bullied kids big brother turns up to beat up the bully.

its majorly tough for the innocent people involved just trying to get on with their lives, and fundamentally unnesseccery too. not a story for this time of year.
Cryptomnesian - the recall of memories not recognised as such, but thought to be original ideas.
www.Cryptomnesian.com
www.myspace.com/thekpa
www.myspace.com/thebodesapha

Post Reply