is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

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is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

yes
87
70%
no
37
30%
 
Total votes: 124

ThrowAway
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Post by ThrowAway » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:00 pm

smutek wrote:
beats me wrote: Ugh. This is why it will never end. People who can't see both sides of the coin or make their entire argument based on 60 years ago or 2,000 years ago.
The difference is there are no people alive from 2000 years ago.

There are still people alive, right now who were living there 60 years ago. Our grand parents age.

They still hold their keys, and the deeds to their homes for gods sakes, in some sad, pathetic hope that one day they will get to go back.

Some of them can actually see their homes from the camps they are in.

Sorry man, but just that that is a huge difference, at least to me it is.

Are they supposed to just let that go and be content in their camps? Because someone lays a 2,000 year old Biblical claim?

Would you give your home up? That was your fathers home, and his fathers home?

I know I wouldn't.


I couldnt agree with you more. Both sides are doing horrible stuff, but Israel's government and suppourters are responsible for this. EDIT- To be fair i should have said mostly responsible.
Last edited by ThrowAway on Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ThrowAway
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Post by ThrowAway » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:10 pm

...........

friend_kami
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Post by friend_kami » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:26 pm

ThrowAway wrote:...........
well put.

jonny72
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Post by jonny72 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:49 pm

Chang wrote:Yes but the key word in your post is Hamas rockets. What about the hundreds of israelis that die each year for the last 7 years by suicide bombings? Thats quite a lot of murder to just overlook. So we dont count the thousands of dead jews since 2000 by way of suicide bomb, just hamas rockets?
WikiPedia has statistics on the casualties of the conflict going back a number years, they appear to be trust worth and to include all casualties:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Pa ... Casualties

Total casualties (deaths) from 2000-20007 is 4502 Palestinians and 1034 Israeli's, or 562 and 129 a year on average, which is a ratio of 4.4 Palestinians to 1 Israeli. What surprised me most was the level of deaths of under 18's - 18% of the Palestinians and 11% of the Israeli's. Not sure what the breakdown of civilians vs military is.

So your claim of hundreds of Israeli deaths a year and thousands in total is wrong and way over the top.

diverdee
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Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:11 pm

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ keeps track of figures, most of the figures are from http://www.btselem.org/English/Statisti ... alties.asp (Israeli human rights organization) - each death is one 2 many.

An update I received from another source:
There's a Norwegian doctor working for Médicins sans frontières at the Shifa hospital in Gaza, and he sent this SMS to Aftenposten, one of the largest newspapers in Oslo (my translation):

"They bombed the central vegetable market in Gaza city two hours ago. 80 injured, 20 killed, everything came to Shifa. Hades! We are wading through death, blood and amputated limbs. Many children. Pregnant woman. I have never seen anything this horrible. Now we're hearing tanks. Tell the story. Shout it out loud. Everything. DO SOMETHING! DO MORE! We're living the history books here."
- That seems somewhat disproportionate no?

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:22 pm

Image

Image

Apparently White Phosphorus - I haven't checked the authenticity, sources:
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/17208 ... -into-Gaza
& http://www.spiderednews.com/Palestinean ... ?f=2&t=668

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=11611

& they have used it before - in Lebanon, initially denying it & then later admitting:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html
The announcement that the Israel Defense Forces had used phosphorus bombs in the war in Lebanon was made by Minister Jacob Edery, in charge of government-Knesset relations. He had been queried on the matter by MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz-Yahad).

"The IDF holds phosphorus munitions in different forms," Edery said. "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

Baron von Case
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Post by Baron von Case » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:09 am

Warring, bloodshed, killing... This is one realm of human nature that I have never been able to wrap my head around. And I hope I never will.

We have such a pathetically brief time to live on this planet, so why would anyone aim to make it shorter? Nothing is worth this.
Image

Machinesworking
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Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:13 am

Baron von Case wrote:Warring, bloodshed, killing... This is one realm of human nature that I have never been able to wrap my head around. And I hope I never will.

We have such a pathetically brief time to live on this planet, so why would anyone aim to make it shorter? Nothing is worth this.
Religious ties to property, on both sides is the only real answer here. It's why I think the european community (US included) is pathetic and shamefully cheap in their response to WWII. "let's see? Hmm? we could keep our formerly respected jewish members of society, deal with the ramifications of the camps, and learn to integrate other cultures in, or we could give them the holy land",
never mind that another group of people as deeply tied to the land already live there. :roll:
Underneath all the BS on both sides that they have secular governments, in the end they're only marginally less religious than Saudi Arabia or Iran. Only a step above the Taliban in military actions anyway.

Honestly, I'm just really glad I don't live in either country, and wish my own wasn't responsible for the same kind of crap in Iraq. :(

b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:32 am

Israel has been armed & bank-rolled by the U.S.A for a long time - so you might want to consider extending that wish of yours...
spreader of butter

Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:49 am

Here is some thing i've never quite understood.
The "Rockets" that Hamas are using.
What kind are they?
They don't seem to be very effective.
It seems that when ever i read an account of how Israel are being bombarded under a barrage of rocket attacks from Gaza, there only seem to be 3 or 4 casualties with few, if any, actual fatalities.
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
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b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:58 am

Homebelly wrote:Here is some thing i've never quite understood.
The "Rockets" that Hamas are using.
What kind are they?
They don't seem to be very effective.
It seems that when ever i read an account of how Israel are being bombarded under a barrage of rocket attacks from Gaza, there only seem to be 3 or 4 casualties with few, if any, actual fatalities.
b0unce wrote:Hi ladies,
I can't give you both barrels right now, but later on I'll have more time.

Anyways - seems like there's a simple-ish ad-hoc answer to the simple-ish question at hand...

http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/ap ... ct=3887857

List of Deaths Caused by Qassam Rockets and Mortar Fire. Total: 23

Total Deaths Within Israel: 16

June 5, 2008 - Amnon Rosenberg, 51, killed by a mortar bomb which struck Moshav Yesha [1]

May 12, 2008 - Shuli Katz, 70, killed by a Qassam rocket which struck Moshav Yesha [2]

May 9, 2008 - Jimmy Kedoshim from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, aged 48, killed by a mortar shell fired by Hamas from the Gaza Strip [3]
Feb 27, 2008 – Roni Yihye, 47, a mature student, killed on Sapir College campus while sitting in his car [4]

May 27, 2007 - Oshri Oz, 36, from Hod Hasharon. Killed in Sderot when a rocket hit his vehicle as he was driving in the city, where he worked as computer technician.

May 21, 2007 - Shirel Friedman, 32, from Sderot, killed when standing near a car that was struck by a rocket

Nov. 21, 2006 - Yaakov Yaakobov, 43, from Sderot. Severely injured while at work in a Sderot poultry processing plant and died from his wounds one day later.

Nov. 11, 2006 - Faina Slutzker, 57, killed when a rocket hits the street where she is walking near the home of Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

March 28, 2006 - Salam Ziadin and Khalid, 16, a Bedouin father and son, killed when a Qassam rocket they find in the Nahal Oz area explodes.

July 15, 2005 - Dana Gelkowitz, 22, killed by a Qassam that strikes a home in Moshav Nativ Ha'asara.

Jan. 15, 2005 - Ayala Haya Abukasis, 17, killed when a rocket hits Sderot.

Sept. 29, 2004 - Dorit Inso, 2, killed when two rockets hit her residence building.

Sept. 29, 2004 - Yuval Abeva, 4, killed when two rockets hit his residence building.

June 28, 2004 - Afik Ohion Zehavi, 4, killed when a rocket lands in his nursery school in Sderot.

June 28, 2004 - Mordechai Yosephus, 49, killed when a rocket lands in a kindergarten in Sderot.

Total Deaths from Mortar Fire in the Former Israeli Settlements in Gaza: 8

Dec. 14, 2005 - Jitladda Tap-arsa, 20, a female Thai national, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Bi Shude, 46, a Chinese national, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Muhammad Mahmoud Jaroum, a Palestinian worker, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Muslah Umran, a Palestinian worker, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

Jan. 2, 2005 - Nissim Arbiv, 26, of Nissanit, was severely injured by a mortar shell in the Erez industrial zone. He died from his injuries ten days later.

Oct. 28, 2004 - Sgt. Michael Chizik, 21, of Tiberias, was killed when a mortar shell landed in the Morag outpost in Gush Katif.

Sept. 24, 2004: Tiferet Tratner, 24, of Neve Dekalim, was killed in her home by a mortar attack on the Gush Katif settlement bloc.

Nov. 24, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Barak Madmon, from Holon, 26, was killed by a mortar strike while on reserve duty in Kfar Darom.

Sources:

1] Amnon Rosenberg, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, June 5, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... enberg.htm

[2] “Shuli Katz,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, May 12, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... y-2008.htm


[3] “Jimmy Kedoshim,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, May 9, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... y-2008.htm

[4] Roni Yihye, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Feb 27, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Ob ... +Yihye.htm

“Rocket threat from the Gaza Strip, 2000-2007” - Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Dec. 2007 - http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_ ... reat_e.htm



adieu
from page 5
spreader of butter

Homebelly
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Post by Homebelly » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:06 am

b0unce wrote:from page 5
:oops:
15" 2.4 MBP/Live/Sampler/Operator/ Home made Dumble clone/Two Strats/One Jazz Bass.
Come and visit any time= Soundcloud

Emissary
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Post by Emissary » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:51 am

:(

jonny72
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Post by jonny72 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:16 pm

If you want detailed information on casualties the B'Tselem website has it. Details of all the people killed on both sides, including whether they were civilian or military, their name, their age, what they were doing at the time and so on. Go to here and then click on the numbers in the table for detailed information:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statisti ... alties.asp

It makes it a lot more personal when you see all that information on the people, they're no longer just a statistic.

Chang
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Post by Chang » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:52 pm

b0unce wrote:Israel has been armed & bank-rolled by the U.S.A for a long time...

And what do you think would happen if israel wasn't backed by usa? The entire arab world would pounce on israel and every jew would be dead in a matter of months. Would that be ok? So the US pull funding from israel so we can see another 6 million jews exterminated?


What was it that Azzam Pasha the Secretary general of the Arab League said 24 hours after UK sent jews to the area again in 1948? "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre." Extermination and momentous massacre of all jews


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe ... tnG=Search

So usa should pull funding from israel which take up 1/10th of 1% of all middle east land so Iran can finish the job the nazis started? Great idea. Let the usa pull funding from israel so the peaceful extermination process to follow can begin.

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