is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

yes
87
70%
no
37
30%
 
Total votes: 124

Machinesworking
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Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:42 pm

b0unce wrote:Israel has been armed & bank-rolled by the U.S.A for a long time - so you might want to consider extending that wish of yours...
I can't agree or disagree with the decision to arm Israel, it's not an easy question to answer.
Israel isn't going away with or without US support. A larger portion of outside funding from what I can tell comes from private sources. 3-4 billion a year seems like a lot, but it's maybe $3-500 per person in Israel, hardly enough to do much besides cause a recession if we stopped.


I'm going to go off topic a bit here, but stay with me.

The question remains justifiable as to whether or not Israel should have existed in the first place, I think we both agree it shouldn't have, and the problems that has caused should be dealt with fairly, which I think personally it's obvious they aren't being dealt with fairly. This of course has nothing to do with what is in existence today. As it stands Israel exists, and really, short of forced evacuation by the worlds military combined, (I don't see any way to get rid of the orthodox and other fundamentalist jews in the area.) Basically at this point I think it's safe to say it's a moot argument as to whether or not the state of Israel exists or has a right to the land. They're not going anywhere, the west and the middle east should realize that.

What I personally have a problem with is Israel pretending to have the interests of the palestinians in mind, yet systematically driving them from their houses, antagonizing their extremists in the process, and bombing the crap out of them. Very obviously IMO not "for peace" or anti terrorist offensives etc. but for the eventual evacuation of more palestinians from the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Hamas for all it's ugliness (I have no sympathy or love of suicide bombing, it's nasty, and to not condemn it is wrong IMO), have a stated objective, not of jewish annihilation as some here have squawked about, ( Seriously, just stop, it doesn't matter if it's a possibility, it's a theory, not a fact! ), but of returning to the borders of 1967. Not an unrealistic objective in terms of real use. The only way this is a bad idea to the Israeli government is if they think two things: that the borders become too uneven and easy for "terrorism" etc. (which is strange and goofy considering the areas are cause of all their 'troubles'), or if they want to move out all the palestinians they can, and settle the areas eventually. My belief is subconsciously or consciously, it really doesn't matter witch, Israel is set on a path to bomb, displace, and economically cripple the palestinians in the territories, thereby allowing for an eventual end to the 'troubles'.

US foreign policy has been to side with Israel every time, no matter what! In fact I really don't know of any time the USA has made any move to condemn Israel for any actions they ever took in the area? I don't think beyond an off hand statement we ever have? Certainly no formal condemnation, and that's just wrong on so many levels it's not funny. What IMO the US has to do is start actively condemning and threatening sanctions against both Israel for any BS military action they take, and promising real support and alliance with the Gaza strip and West bank if they openly condemn certain practices (suicide bombing, womens rights issues, shari law etc.). This isn't happening, and it's a real first step. At this point, the US more or less considers the palestinians 'terrorists', (at least their government, and any organized resistance to occupation) which is pretty lame.

jonny72
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Post by jonny72 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:54 am

Machinesworking wrote:What I personally have a problem with is Israel pretending to have the interests of the palestinians in mind, yet systematically driving them from their houses, antagonizing their extremists in the process, and bombing the crap out of them. Very obviously IMO not "for peace" or anti terrorist offensives etc. but for the eventual evacuation of more palestinians from the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though I think Israel's main aim at the moment is to regularly destroy as much of the Palestinian infrastructure as they can and ensure that Palestine stays weak for as long as possible.

I reckon the possibility of peace scares Israel more than the missiles. They know they would have to make sacrifices that they don't want to make, they'd have to give up land, resettle people, hand over religious sites, give up control of borders and air space and much, much more.

The worst part of it for me is that the Israel leadership doesn't even give a toss about its own people and especially their own casualties the conflict brings. If they did care they wouldn't be going down the path they have chosen.

I can't think of a single conflict like this that has been ended through the use of force, they only end through negotiation. The use of force just results in more casualties and pushes the end of the conflict even further away.

friend_kami
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Post by friend_kami » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:11 am

jonny72 wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:What I personally have a problem with is Israel pretending to have the interests of the palestinians in mind, yet systematically driving them from their houses, antagonizing their extremists in the process, and bombing the crap out of them. Very obviously IMO not "for peace" or anti terrorist offensives etc. but for the eventual evacuation of more palestinians from the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though I think Israel's main aim at the moment is to regularly destroy as much of the Palestinian infrastructure as they can and ensure that Palestine stays weak for as long as possible.

I reckon the possibility of peace scares Israel more than the missiles. They know they would have to make sacrifices that they don't want to make, they'd have to give up land, resettle people, hand over religious sites, give up control of borders and air space and much, much more.

The worst part of it for me is that the Israel leadership doesn't even give a toss about its own people and especially their own casualties the conflict brings. If they did care they wouldn't be going down the path they have chosen.

I can't think of a single conflict like this that has been ended through the use of force, they only end through negotiation. The use of force just results in more casualties and pushes the end of the conflict even further away.
agree. with both of you.

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:54 am

Has anyone stopped in here for just a second to incorporate into their thought process the fact that in Jew torah and religion there is no world wide kill arabs order/law/scripture edict? And opposite, the absolute self admitted undeniable fact that Hamas entire ideology is based on the total destruction and death of every single Jew on earth even if it means committing suicide and using innocent Palestinians as human shields? This, has no impact on your insane ramblings about a legitimate jewish state even though Jews have constantly been in Jerusalem for the last 3000 years?
Last edited by Chang on Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chang
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Post by Chang » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:12 am

Machinesworking wrote:
b0unce wrote:Israel has been armed & bank-rolled by the U.S.A for a long time - so you might want to consider extending that wish of yours...
whether or not Israel should have existed in the first place, I think we both agree it shouldn't have


I do not agree with this.
Last edited by Chang on Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

dazzer
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Post by dazzer » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:07 am

MMM, Godwin's law plus the wrath of the Abletons, all in one bite-sized post.

Nice going, Chang.

b&?

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:26 am

dazzer wrote:MMM, Godwin's law plus the wrath of the Abletons, all in one bite-sized post.

Nice going, Chang.

b&?


[/quote]

whether or not Israel should have existed in the first place, I think we both agree it shouldn't have[/quote]



Yea, I'm way on the outside of using nazi as analogy. <eye roll> Give me a break. This is hardly Godwin's law by any stretch of the imagination with any sanity involved. Blatantly posted by user "Israel should not have existed in the first place"? Thats direct, not Godwin's law and certainly not an analogy according to Godwin's law.

Machinesworking
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Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:39 am

Chang wrote:Has anyone stopped in here for just a second to incorporate into their thought process the fact that in Jew torah and religion there is no world wide kill arabs order/law/scripture edict? And opposite, the absolute self admitted undeniable fact that Hamas entire ideology is based on the total destruction and death of every single Jew on earth even if it means committing suicide and using innocent Palestinians as human shields? This, has no impact on your insane ramblings about a legitimate jewish state even though Jews have constantly been in Jerusalem for the last 3000 years?


You're all either insane or I'm on an aryan nation skin head board.









Either way, toward your posts.



Apparently keep the faith to your beliefs. >
Off Topic here, but it's completely disrespectful to post pictures of Hitler on a german board. Seriously, beyond the obvious lack of any real point you're making, it's just not in good taste at all.

On to your 'point'.

A: Using the muslim religion as a point of argument is really pretty see through. Plenty of bad things have been done in the name of both religions, and post 911 bigotry aimed at saying that the muslims are more violent etc. is just cheap. Religion itself, no matter how peaceful it's followers say it is, has been used more successfully than politics in about every war out there. There are 1 billion muslims out there, some of them are on this board playing electronic music.

B: Hamas have one stated demand of Israel, to pull out of the West bank and Gaza. Whether or not some blather could be construed as wanting genocide is heresy, and not worthy of discussion IMO. Of course they're pissed, people are still losing land, Gaza is still a mess, and they're proud fundamentalists.

C: Trying to paint all who disagree with you as being nazis is so cheap it's not even funny. Totally pathetic and does nothing to make look at all rational about this.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:59 am

Chang wrote:
machinesworking wrote: whether or not Israel should have existed in the first place, I think we both agree it shouldn't have
Yea, I'm way on the outside of using nazi as analogy. <eye roll> Give me a break. This is hardly Godwin's law by any stretch of the imagination with any sanity involved. Blatantly posted by user "Israel should not have existed in the first place"? Thats direct, not Godwin's law and certainly not an analogy according to Godwin's law.
I'm not surprised at your "shock", but it's really pretty lame. I would never want ANY country formed with a singular religion and ethnic group in mind, especially not on land where people are ALREADY LIVING! Especially in an area considered holy, and revered by both the people living there, and the new religious nuts.

and just to remind you, you cut and slice retard. IN THE SAME POST!
Machinesworking wrote: Basically at this point I think it's safe to say it's a moot argument as to whether or not the state of Israel exists or has a right to the land. They're not going anywhere, the west and the middle east should realize that.
Why on earth would I want to debate you like you suggested earlier??? You can't even argue without calling people names and claiming the "enemy" to be inferior politically and religiously as a reason for siding with one or the other, facts aren't an issue here, it's all reactionary bullshit. Sorry man, I usually don't get personal, but you're being really lame. :?

Try thinking a little for once. What on earth was/is so wrong with the idea that we (the west) should have settled debts and made amends to the jewish people in our countries, and continued on? What is so surprising in this day and age with a person NOT wanting to see another religious state emerge?
What about me saying that Israel isn't going anywhere makes you think I think they shouldn't exist now? Think before you post. Quit acting on your ideology emotionally and explain your position, otherwise this will be the last time I address you with any respect for your intelligence.

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:36 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Chang wrote:
machinesworking wrote: whether or not Israel should have existed in the first place, I think we both agree it shouldn't have
Yea, I'm way on the outside of using nazi as analogy. <eye roll> Give me a break. This is hardly Godwin's law by any stretch of the imagination with any sanity involved. Blatantly posted by user "Israel should not have existed in the first place"? Thats direct, not Godwin's law and certainly not an analogy according to Godwin's law.
I'm not surprised at your "shock", but it's really pretty lame. I would never want ANY country formed with a singular religion and ethnic group in mind, especially not on land where people are ALREADY LIVING! Especially in an area considered holy, and revered by both the people living there, and the new religious nuts.

Ridiculous.


#1st - I've already proven & stated that no arabs gave a flying fuck about current Israel land in the 1800's being "holy" so your point is stupid, uninformed and moot.


#2nd - I've already proven & stated that Jews have lived in Jeruselem for the last three thousand five hundred years "ALREADY LIVING!" as you say.


#3rd - See #1

So what is your point?
Last edited by Chang on Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:46 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Chang wrote:Has anyone stopped in here for just a second to incorporate into their thought process the fact that in Jew torah and religion there is no world wide kill arabs order/law/scripture edict? And opposite, the absolute self admitted undeniable fact that Hamas entire ideology is based on the total destruction and death of every single Jew on earth even if it means committing suicide and using innocent Palestinians as human shields? This, has no impact on your insane ramblings about a legitimate jewish state even though Jews have constantly been in Jerusalem for the last 3000 years?


You're all either insane or I'm on an aryan nation skin head board.









Either way, toward your posts.



Apparently keep the faith to your beliefs. >
Off Topic here, but it's completely disrespectful to post pictures of Hitler on a german board. Seriously, beyond the obvious lack of any real point you're making, it's just not in good taste at all.

On to your 'point'.


B: Hamas have one stated demand of Israel, to pull out of the West bank and Gaza.
Wait, the Jews pulled out of Gaza in 2005, where were you? They even pull their own people settlers out of gaza by military force to help make peace with hamas lunatics. And? 8,000 missiles into Israel is answer from Hamas as other end of peace agreement? This is absolute Fact. Where is your logic?

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Post by Chang » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:21 am

Machinesworking wrote:
b0unce wrote:Israel has been armed & bank-rolled by the U.S.A for a long time - so you might want to consider extending that wish of yours...
The question remains justifiable as to whether or not Israel should have existed in the first place, I think we both agree it shouldn't have.

I dont agree with this.
Last edited by Chang on Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

jonny72
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Post by jonny72 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:47 am

Chang wrote:And as far as your immature "retard" comment toward me is concerned as you know english is not my first language. I'd love to see your Chinese in action. But since I've already labeled by deduction you as a Nazi jew hater it really doesn't matter if you hate me or the Jew, you are a hater. Accept it.
You really need to stop calling people Nazi's and Jew haters. They are pretty nasty insults anyway but to use them repeatedly on the forums of a German company is just totally unacceptable.

LeifonMars
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Post by LeifonMars » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:16 pm

I don't get this überpoliteness of yours to prevent people on this forum to mention evil mr. H. I mean I get it if you ask people not to call you names, but if a person is to show his/hers level of retardness by calling another person on this forum a follower of mr. H should be rude towards of abletonians as well because of Ableton being a German based company, I think there you are missing something. Germans themselves are the first ones to acknowledge their past.

diverdee
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Post by diverdee » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:26 pm

well - there is no mention of Muslims killing jews in the koran either, they are refered to as 'people of the book' & in strict Islamic terms should be honored as such.
& yes there have been Jews in Israel for the past x thousand years, Arabic Jews, I haven't got the references to hand but there have been a few adademic studies regarding their status as second class citizens in Israel.
There are a fair few Jews in Iran also, strangely enough they are quite happy there & have turned down offers to be resettled in Israel.
as for the rest of Chang's vitriolic drivel - classic defence of Israeli policy tactics, just accuse the critics of being anti-semitic & Nazi's.
but what about those of us who are by descent Jewish Chang - what are we, self hating Jews I guess?
There are undoubtedly those who hate Jews, I would have been labeled a Jew myself & subjected to the genocidal discrimination Jews were under the Nazi regime.
There are those who hate Israel no doubt & believe that (even though it is now a living fact) it should never have existed & thus does not deserve to exist now (most likely these are Jew haters also).
Then there are those of us who hate the Zionist expansionist & aggressive policies of Israel, we have no problem with Jews as an ethnicity/race/culture etc. & although we may believe that the founding of Israel as it happened should not have happened (as the 'land without a people' actually had people, thus invalidating the whole concept) we accept it's right to exist now, for historical & political necessity, but we reserve the right to criticize it's policies (as they are a major worldwide cause of instability) without being accused by ignorant of being anti-semitic, Jew haters & Nazi's.
By extending Chang's logic many very well respected Jewish & Israeli academics & journalists )as well as members of various Israel peace factions) should be branded Jew haters & Nazis also, even though they are themselves Jewish & many happen to live in Israel, but as thinking feeling human beings they are thinking long term & would prefer peace in the middle east, rather than a state of constant conflict.

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