is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

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is Israeli response to Palestinians disproportionate?

yes
87
70%
no
37
30%
 
Total votes: 124

diverdee
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:11 am
Location: Bradford - The Armpit of Britain

Post by diverdee » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:36 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... l-death-un

And yet once again the Israeli's bomb areas clearly marked by the UN were civilians are sheltering, Schools no less - no doubt they will claim that there were rockets being fire from them, or rockets stored there, thus by their peculiar definition of the rules of law allowing them to bomb unarmed civilians who were seeking shelter from the madness.
Flashbacks to the Qana massacre anyone?

ThrowAway
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:13 pm

Post by ThrowAway » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:04 pm

chang, i think its blasphemous disgraceful and ignorant to use your religion as an excuse to do something, if its fundamentally against your religion to be doing it. More parallels could be drawn from israel-nazi germany than anyone here being a nazi.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11104
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:32 pm

diverdee wrote:well - there is no mention of Muslims killing jews in the koran either, they are refered to as 'people of the book' & in strict Islamic terms should be honored as such.
& yes there have been Jews in Israel for the past x thousand years, Arabic Jews, I haven't got the references to hand but there have been a few adademic studies regarding their status as second class citizens in Israel.
There are a fair few Jews in Iran also, strangely enough they are quite happy there & have turned down offers to be resettled in Israel.
as for the rest of Chang's vitriolic drivel - classic defence of Israeli policy tactics, just accuse the critics of being anti-semitic & Nazi's.
but what about those of us who are by descent Jewish Chang - what are we, self hating Jews I guess?
There are undoubtedly those who hate Jews, I would have been labeled a Jew myself & subjected to the genocidal discrimination Jews were under the Nazi regime.
There are those who hate Israel no doubt & believe that (even though it is now a living fact) it should never have existed & thus does not deserve to exist now (most likely these are Jew haters also).
Then there are those of us who hate the Zionist expansionist & aggressive policies of Israel, we have no problem with Jews as an ethnicity/race/culture etc. & although we may believe that the founding of Israel as it happened should not have happened (as the 'land without a people' actually had people, thus invalidating the whole concept) we accept it's right to exist now, for historical & political necessity, but we reserve the right to criticize it's policies (as they are a major worldwide cause of instability) without being accused by ignorant of being anti-semitic, Jew haters & Nazi's.
By extending Chang's logic many very well respected Jewish & Israeli academics & journalists )as well as members of various Israel peace factions) should be branded Jew haters & Nazis also, even though they are themselves Jewish & many happen to live in Israel, but as thinking feeling human beings they are thinking long term & would prefer peace in the middle east, rather than a state of constant conflict.
+1
Thanks, saves me the time. I'm 100% pro jewish people, and anti zionist. I'm 100% pro arab people and anti fundamentalist muslim.

smutek
Posts: 4488
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:37 pm

diverdee wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... l-death-un

And yet once again the Israeli's bomb areas clearly marked by the UN were civilians are sheltering, Schools no less - no doubt they will claim that there were rockets being fire from them, or rockets stored there, thus by their peculiar definition of the rules of law allowing them to bomb unarmed civilians who were seeking shelter from the madness.
Flashbacks to the Qana massacre anyone?
Yes, they are claiming that they were taking fire from the location.

Not only was the school clearly marked, it is a United Nations school. An official United Nations installation. The Israeli's have United Nations installations marked on their GPS systems and all of their targeting systems. They know exactly what they are doing.

And they shelled it anyway. 40 more dead, and counting.

Yes, very much like Qana.

Mr. Obvious
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:29 am
Location: At the computer.

Post by Mr. Obvious » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:40 pm

Mr. Chang, your words are the most ignorant and appalling in this thread. Your interpretation of history is completely simplistic at best and lacks any sensitivity to other very valid and well delivered points of view. You have been pwned by Mr. Machinesworking even on the simple level of civil conversation regardless of right or wrong. Sensitivity to arabs is not anti jew. I will simply laugh now at your response.
Music Is Good

jonny72
Posts: 790
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:43 pm

Post by jonny72 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:49 pm

diverdee wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... l-death-un

And yet once again the Israeli's bomb areas clearly marked by the UN were civilians are sheltering, Schools no less - no doubt they will claim that there were rockets being fire from them, or rockets stored there, thus by their peculiar definition of the rules of law allowing them to bomb unarmed civilians who were seeking shelter from the madness.
Flashbacks to the Qana massacre anyone?
From the BBC article:
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the incident was a "very extreme example of how Hamas operates".
"If you take over - I presume with guns - a UN facility. If you hold the people there as hostages, you shoot out of that facility at Israeli soldiers in the neighbourhood, then you receive incoming fire - I think that's a war crime under international law," he told the BBC.
Pot. Kettle. Black.

smutek
Posts: 4488
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:30 pm
Location: Baltimore,United States

Post by smutek » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:19 pm

jonny72 wrote:
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the incident was a "very extreme example of how Hamas operates".
"If you take over - I presume with guns - a UN facility. If you hold the people there as hostages, you shoot out of that facility at Israeli soldiers in the neighbourhood, then you receive incoming fire - I think that's a war crime under international law," he told the BBC.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
An Israeli government spokesman said.... yeah, ok. What would we expect an Israeli government spokesman to say?

Bear in mind these are the same people who claim there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the people who are responsible for all of this.

I'm listening to an interview, as I type this, with Christopher Gunness of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. He is in Gaza.

He said the school was filled with about 400 people who were seeking protection from the bombing.

It's interesting because every interview I've heard today with aid workers in Gaza claims the same.

The people went to the school seeking protection after the Israelis dropped leaflets warning them they should leave their homes because they were about to be bombed.

But they bombed the UN school as well, didn't they.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11104
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:46 pm

To be fair here, Hamas does OK suicide martyrs, so it is possible that a few terrorist gunmen were intentionally doing this for the news it would create. Even if that is the case though, it would then say something bad about the amount of training the israeli soldiers are getting. It would seem to me that war crimes are the main thing they want to avoid in all this.

Either way, it's pretty sad, and a bad decision on the part of whoever OK'd it.

navitus
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:44 am

Post by navitus » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:17 am

"I'm 100% pro jewish people, and anti zionist.
I'm 100% pro arab people and anti fundamentalist muslim."

:) , sanity and rational thought which the world is lacking these days.

Zionism = Muslim Fundamentalism = Hate and Horror.
Jews = Muslims = Humans.

Wishing for peace and tolerance throughout the world.
F

Corn Swabler
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:24 pm

Post by Corn Swabler » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:22 am

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Corn Swabler
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Post by Corn Swabler » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:23 am

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jonny72
Posts: 790
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:43 pm

Post by jonny72 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:20 am

Machinesworking wrote:To be fair here, Hamas does OK suicide martyrs, so it is possible that a few terrorist gunmen were intentionally doing this for the news it would create.
Not according to the UN, quote from the Guardian article:

A United Nations official in Gaza said the school was clearly marked with a UN flag and its location had been reported to Israeli authorities. John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, said that three artillery shells landed at the perimeter of the school where 350 people were taking shelter. "Of course it was entirely inevitable if artillery shells landed in that area there would be a high number of casualties," he said.

Asked whether there were Hamas militants in the area at the time of the attack, Ging said it was the scene of clashes "so there's an intense military and militant activity in that area." He said UN staff vetted Palestinians seeking shelter at their facilities to make sure militants were not taking advantage of them. "So far we've not had violations by militants of our facilities," he said. Ging called for an independent investigation of the strikes near UN facilities.

Corn Swabler
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:24 pm

Post by Corn Swabler » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:27 am

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Corn Swabler
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Post by Corn Swabler » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:27 am

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Corn Swabler
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Post by Corn Swabler » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:28 am

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