Israel: Boycott, divest, sanction

[spkey]

i recently read naomi klein's "disaster capitalism" and john perkins second book "secret history of the american empire", and i'm totally buyng it. at the end of the day it's about money and power. not political power as in hamas vs. israeli government, but worldwide corporate power, mainly based in the united states. according to these authors, israel is basically a u.s. army base, designed to protect corporate interests and open up a great potential market. both authors also agree that boycott is one of the strongest weapons against the corporatocracies of the world. so as stanhope said it: "buy less shit!".

you should also read Noam Chomski's Understanding Power. Do so, and you'll be thanking me. Promise!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-P ... 775&sr=1-1

[glamourboy]

[quote="spkey"]
you should also read Noam Chomski's Understanding Power. Do so, and you'll be thanking me. Promise!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-P ... 775&sr=1-1[/quote]

first i'm going to read perkins first book "confessions of an economic hitman", but i think chomsky is next in line. he always made a lot of sense to me in online interviews and lectures.

i'm really starting to sound like a conspiracy nut when i'm drunk with my mates, but the way the world looks these days, people are becoming more open to the idea of corruption at the top level. it's not so hard to believe when you hear ex-cia dudes explain how they completely fucked over central- and south america and south east asia. why should the middle east be any different?

[Chang]

Not worth effort to answer again. Points exactly like yours already made and answered 10 times in thread by 20 different people. Round n round same old. Read entire thread. If US and west not back Israel in this time period, the arabs would destroy israel in a matter of days as they've tried to in past. 2nd point, gaza, golan heights etc all lost by arabs when they start 67 war in first place, and had they left israel alone [which was much smaller at the time] the arabs would still have full control over those regions. They fuck up and start war to eradicate the state of israel and in doing so lost a ton of land in 1967. Their own fault.
Not worth answering same line of debate over and over again. Thread too long.

Can you please elaborate as to why you think Egypt "started" the 67 war? What about the Suez crisis then 10 years earlier? This was an Israeli-French-British attack on Egypt due to the fact that Egypt finally decided to keep its own oil for itself rather than serve British Businesses. How far do you want to go in time?

I am not debating that Israel don't need a state of self-determination - even though it is an illegal state - but so do the Palestinians. How do you think this crisis will get resolved and how do you explain the numerous peace offers that have been offered to Israel from the Arabs and the U.N and they always got rejected by the U.S and Israel?

By the way, U.S did not support Israel because they worried the Arabs would destroy them. This is invalid and proven from history. Israel is an important U.S asset of ruling in the middle East.

The united kingdom were major players in the Suez problem 10 years earlier. I like how you strategically wrote "Israel-French-British" attack in your post though in that order. You know, to make israel look like major player and britain only barely involved. Nice move.

Anyway, we've already gone back 3,500 years in time line on thread, nothing new here in your 'how far you want to go back' question.

But this is where you FAIL in debate.

The entire civilized World powers including the USSR & US recognize israel as legal state, but you personally do not. This makes entire argument with you pointless as you are making things up as you go along and are either lying or ignorant to the fact.

Balfour declaration of 1917 - basic college history you should know.

This i copy paste because its easier than writing it out.

<
"On November 29, 1947, the World General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own sovereign State." >

End copy paste.

Also, on May 11, 1949 israel was admitted to become the 59th member of the World General Assembly of the United Nations.

And I ask this with only a calm curious open mind. What are you talking about Israel being illegal state, where are you getting this from? Entire world recognize israel as legal state according to World UN council itself since 1947.

You're answer please?



The west and United state support to israel argument is totally irrelevant to the debate as Israel is a legal state and if not for west backing, the arab world would destroy Israel.

That is another argument entirely. You get ahead of yourself. First explain your delusional lie of israel not being recognized by world as legal state according to the UN and then move on to US in middle east.

[Machinesworking]

well... my arrogant friend...
wow... apparantly you don't quite understand how 'voting' works in the arab world...
read up on that... plus.. .look how many years leaders rule in arab 'democracies'....

OK this point is really interesting to me, when did it become your right to decide how corrupt their government is? What I mean is, sure, I can go off about the 2000 US presidential elections for days, about how George Bush's brother ran the state that decided the vote etc. People can come up with all sorts of reasons to question the legitimacy of the current governments in any number of western countries out there, but it makes you seem like a racist yourself when you claim that arab 'democracies' are a sham. As if any muslim nation is bad.

I know this from living this...
I wasn't talking about current embargo to Gaza
(which was the 'peaceful' combat with Hamas)

This was wrong, this is why Hamas was firing rockets, this is why in reality, Isrtael started this, and now that Obama is getting inaugurated, your leaders are pulling out conveniently.

This is why you can say anything you want about how they were only 'reacting', and you're not being honest. Reacting to Hamas existing at all maybe, but not to any threat from Hamas.

Again, as the one military power in the area that doesn't just rely on throwing bodies at bullets, it's up to your leaders to do the right things and not institute crippling embargoes on your conquered territories, or build roads and settlements into said territory that are basically examples of apartheid in action.


Beyond that, you like the Wretch Machine, so you're OK by me.

[dna598]

exactly how is me saying "the jews are not stupid" racist? Thats a compliment anyway! even though its a pretty sick compliment, when refering what Israel has gotten away with.

is it because i said the word jew?

Does it hurt your delicate little mind?

If i speak collectively about a people is that racist? youre a clown 3dot...

Should i say the "Israelis" are not stupid?
You see, the confusion is there to see...Being Israeli...what exactly does that make you as far as race is concerned? South African? Russian?
answer: all of the above and whatever you want, as long as its jewish. How racist and futile is that?


The "right of return" is a demographic population war. The "right" of return only belongs to the Gazans and West Bank People, and all original inhabitants of that land,not to characters in a 2000 year old book that many CLAIM to be descendants of.
But its too late now,



Just Sort your fucking country, out please.

I wouldnt wanna be you. Being afraid (re:"comes with with the territory" comment) of your surroundings cos you dont want the natives to get restless every fuckin moment is THE worst way i can think of living. and just shows that you are living every moment knowing youre presence is not appreciated and is problematic to say the least. terrible, really.

Drawing the race card is really sad man, especially when your country is simply killing for your comfortable folks (the "facts" on the ground) in Sderot, which is the land of the people currently herded up in YOUR concentration camp in Gaza.

YOUR meaning the plural, mneaning you and your government, the Jewish State. OOpps! oh, no i said Jewish, i must be racist!!! (only joking you idiot)

What everyone with a brain sees, whether you like it or not 3dot..., is that this is all about preserving the Jewishness of Israel, the demograhic war, and shifting populations (the arab population) towards the surrounding states, and out of Israel.

There aint gonna be no palestinian state.

What i see is that you have succesfully divided and conquered.Like the Old Colonialists.

you have been "chosen" by "god" to be a bunch of a-holes like the spanish or the british or the germans or the portuguese or the belgians or the dutch landing in africa/Australia/america in the past, thanks to Zionism.(created in Austria in the 1800's, along with......., i shan't say)




but thanks for everything else, like einstein and shit.

PEACE, yeah.

[Machinesworking]

Also to add to the thoughts in my last post here.

Not caring about the outcome of general elections in other countries or provinces, ( whatever you're titling Gaza at this point )... or disavowing the outcome, and doing whatever it takes, embargoes, bombing etc. These are the reasons why people become fundamentalist. I've said this over and over again, you cannot take away basic rights of a people because they are 'doing it wrong', then freak out and act surprised when they become even more extremist, and hate you even more.

So according to you 3dot, Iran funds Hamas, and your countries reaction is to embargo and tighten border security to the point of crippling, and somehow that's supposed to get the people to get rid of Hamas? or win hearts and minds?? To me the only outcome of this is to frighten the moderates and peaceful people in Gaza to leave, which then sets the stage for the next war... blah.

More diplomacy would be great, and not just because Obama is about to be elected like we're seeing now. I was right, all too opportunistically planned by the current Israeli government. yuck.

[Chang]

Also to add to the thoughts in my last post here.


So according to you 3dot, Iran funds Hamas, and your countries reaction is to embargo and tighten border security to the point of crippling, and somehow that's supposed to get the people to get rid of Hamas? or win hearts and minds?? To me the only outcome of this is to frighten the moderates and peaceful people in Gaza to leave, which then sets the stage for the next war... blah.

More diplomacy would be great, and not just because Obama is about to be elected like we're seeing now. I was right, all too opportunistically planned by the current Israeli government. yuck.

Analogy.

Machinesworking, obviously if the KKK [Iran] funds Hamas [Neo Nazis hell bent on the destruction of all jew] you would tighten embargo on KKK too. Wheat, rice and bread are at the bottom of the list of things they want to carry across border. TNT and C4 explosive obviously first priority as seen for last 10 years.

The hearts and minds of Jews are literally spilled out all over the streets of israel in dead dry red pools from suicide bombers.

Insane to use respective death counts in this thread as a way to measure ethical culpability, as if Hamas incompetence in its acts of attempted mass murder in day to day missile attacks is supposed to be a mark against Israel. No one in their right mind should have sympathy for Hamas for being less efficient killers and more effective terrorists.

Once again. If the arabs had the technology that the Israelis have, all jews would be dead within a week. We wouldnt be arguing about 1,300 Palestinian deaths but 3,000,000 jew deaths. Anyone with any degree could argue this.

There is no diplomacy where the holy Koran is concerned. Kill all jews.

[Machinesworking]

Also to add to the thoughts in my last post here.


So according to you 3dot, Iran funds Hamas, and your countries reaction is to embargo and tighten border security to the point of crippling, and somehow that's supposed to get the people to get rid of Hamas? or win hearts and minds?? To me the only outcome of this is to frighten the moderates and peaceful people in Gaza to leave, which then sets the stage for the next war... blah.

More diplomacy would be great, and not just because Obama is about to be elected like we're seeing now. I was right, all too opportunistically planned by the current Israeli government. yuck.

Analogy.

Machinesworking, obviously if the KKK [Iran] funds Hamas [Neo Nazis hell bent on the destruction of all jew] you would tighten embargo on KKK too. Wheat, rice and bread are at the bottom of the list of things they want to carry across border. TNT and C4 explosive obviously first priority as seen for last 10 years.

The hearts and minds of Jews are literally spilled out all over the streets of israel in dead dry red pools from suicide bombers.

Insane to use respective death counts in this thread as a way to measure ethical culpability, as if Hamas incompetence in its acts of attempted mass murder in day to day missile attacks is supposed to be a mark against Israel. No one in their right mind should have sympathy for Hamas for being less efficient killers and more effective terrorists.

Once again. If the arabs had the technology that the Israelis have, all jews would be dead within a week. We wouldnt be arguing about 1,300 Palestinian deaths but 3,000,000 jew deaths. Anyone with any degree could argue this.

You cannot and should not equate palestinians to the KKK, it's obvious to anybody with half the knowledge on the subject that you have that both sides have valid arguments for living on the pieces of land they currently do live on. Equating palestinian anger at the current situation, which is very similar to South Africa in many ways, to the KKK is the exact reason why there will never be peace there until both sides drop the drama queen routine.
Israel is not going anywhere, we all know that, and I think even the most insane Iran cleric is at least aware that the best that can be done in the next 50 odd years is to get some sort of consideration for the West Bank and Gaza. The quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was in reference to his feeling that Israel is a propped up state and that it's significance was little in the face of history. It was grandstanding at best. Any leader over there who ever thought that they could somehow take on Israel is well aware by simply looking at recent history of what happens to leaders who appose Israel and the US. Iran's leader was deposed in the 50's, Egypt lost in 6 days, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. No countries leaders want to be hung on national television like Hussain, so very simply, no country will attack Israel again.
Just to clarify, again. Israel are the powerhouse here, the point is moot whether arab countries would attack Israel given the chance etc. since they are not in the position to, and it's fabrication at best to say they would kill all jews etc. Thus it's up to Israelis to make decisions that help the situation. As it stands, the moves made make me think they just want to push palestinians off the land, regardless of how many new enemies it makes them.

My feelings are yeah, Israel is a better government than most of the middle east, but with that in mind, they should have some sort of diplomacy. I still don't get what taking land occupied by people was supposed to do to make things better??? It's not the 1800's anymore.

[dna598]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055922.html


not brand new but at least some jewish peeps know the real score, and are brave enough to speak. Yeah he's english like me, sorry 3dot... you probably think him a gentile, and thus worthless.

[smartass303]

some forum members scare me.

303