Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
peterneo
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Post by peterneo » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:55 pm

I just replicated it in Live Lite 7. The midi track I set to record a VI had a slight delay. I was about to purchase Live Suite 8 too....

I was using ASIO4All and a QWERTY keyboard though...

SWAN808
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Post by SWAN808 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:58 pm

j2j wrote:
SWAN808 wrote:Im afraid the stupidity is in here if you cant see this issue....
If you are asking if the stuff on my system looks this far off


The answer is NO. I realize, that is not the answer you want. Tough Luck buddy...
lol - so much attitude around here

Dont worry about it then - ignorance is bliss
adventurepants_ wrote:god i thought everyone knew about this ages ago.

SWAN808, it doesnt really affect anyone unless you have impeccable timing on a midi keyboard or midi percussion. if you quantise your input, youll probably never notice it. This is why it seems such a surprise to most.

Musicians deal with tiny latencies all the time in performance, and have the experience to adjust automatically. that doesnt explain why Live of all DAWs chose to go this way, but its not the end of the world.

Obsessive Music tech nerds who like finding technical problems in DAWs, and shaking their tiny impotent fists more than making music will probably think this is the worst audio crime committed since Scooter. Others will work around it and make music.
The reason why this is a dealbreaker for me - is that you loose any natural 'feel' by quantising to the grid. That means any shots on drum racks you dont want to be a 16h note - if you play it yourself - you will have to then move the note by hand in order to get it to the place you 'think' you recorded it. With musical playing - you will loose all feel...I guess the new groove options will go some way to help this - however - I still do not feel happy about Live not being able to replicate a simple MIDI recording easily and accurately...

Its not criminal - and it is workable - but its a tough pill to swallow if you are coming from another DAW that does not have this issue...
Last edited by SWAN808 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WaveRider
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Re: Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!

Post by WaveRider » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:00 pm

jamester wrote:
Starts on the second post of Page 3, by vieris:
I love Live but i had to stop using it to record midi & audio. It records post latency. So in other words it dosen't record what you play.

yeah that is true I have been complaining here about it :) there is a delay in the audio recorded when the track is on monitor :wink:

ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:00 pm

RTFM p443
2. If you are using playthrough while recording, you will want to record what you
hear even if, because of latency, this occurs slightly later than what you play.

It's a design decision Ableton made to record it how it came out of the speakers, not how it was played. It would be nice to be able to turn it on/off, but I also suspect turning off PDC during recording would help. It is definitely an understandable decision and not evidence that Ableton, despite revolutionizing computer-based music performance, have no idea how to deal with latency effectively. :roll:

adventurepants_
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Post by adventurepants_ » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:01 pm

PS the thread i posted a page back covers the whole thing in excruciating detail, including several responses from Ableton employees on the issue.
nathannn wrote:i will block everyone on this forum if i have to.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:02 pm

Emissary wrote:
kb420 wrote:I hate to say this, but he is right.

I noticed the same thing when I was tracking my Motif ES into Live.

Here is the scenario. I slave my Motif to Live. I arm the proper tracks in Live to record the incoming signal from my Motif via mlan.

When I'm done recording, I do find that I have to nudge the tracks ever so slightly in Live. I never have this problem when I do the same thing with Sonar.

I'm using a q6600 overclocked to 3ghz, and I can still notice it, but believe me, it's nothing at all to complain about in my situation.
same here, i was recording my singer and i couldnt work i why her timing was shit , but when i nudged it a few steps, all was fine. I had delay compensation on and she seemed to be in time when i was recording her. weird. maybe there is some truth to this then
track delay compensation is applied during recording and playback, only use it on playback. take some time to play with this, it'll make your singer happy to come into a session and not have to deal with YOUR technical issues, I know it helps with mine.

find out your sound card's latency setting. send audio of your computer and record it back into an audio track. zoom in all the way in clip view to see a time ruler at the bottom of the screen. to see what the actual delay is. or play the source and the recording at the same time, put a utility on it to invert one, then delay the track until the flange and then cancel out, or instead of track delay, move the warp marker on the recording.

I use one track to record, then another with delay applied. I record and move the clip over. or if it's a slow session, just me, I just move the first warp marker after recording and be done with it.

at 192kHz my latency is low enough it doesn't matter.




BUT this guy's problem is with high CPU and PDC, something completely different and it's a known issue.

he's not talking about external sources.
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Emissary
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Post by Emissary » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:08 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
Emissary wrote:
kb420 wrote:I hate to say this, but he is right.

I noticed the same thing when I was tracking my Motif ES into Live.

Here is the scenario. I slave my Motif to Live. I arm the proper tracks in Live to record the incoming signal from my Motif via mlan.

When I'm done recording, I do find that I have to nudge the tracks ever so slightly in Live. I never have this problem when I do the same thing with Sonar.

I'm using a q6600 overclocked to 3ghz, and I can still notice it, but believe me, it's nothing at all to complain about in my situation.
same here, i was recording my singer and i couldnt work i why her timing was shit , but when i nudged it a few steps, all was fine. I had delay compensation on and she seemed to be in time when i was recording her. weird. maybe there is some truth to this then
track delay compensation is applied during recording and playback, only use it on playback. take some time to play with this, it'll make your singer happy to come into a session and not have to deal with YOUR technical issues, I know it helps with mine.

find out your sound card's latency setting. send audio of your computer and record it back into an audio track. zoom in all the way in clip view to see a time ruler at the bottom of the screen. to see what the actual delay is. or play the source and the recording at the same time, put a utility on it to invert one, then delay the track until the flange and then cancel out, or instead of track delay, move the warp marker on the recording.

I use one track to record, then another with delay applied. I record and move the clip over. or if it's a slow session, just me, I just move the first warp marker after recording and be done with it.

at 192kHz my latency is low enough it doesn't matter.




BUT this guy's problem is with high CPU and PDC, something completely different and it's a known issue.

he's not talking about external sources.
Thanks greatly for the little tip you Brian Blessed sound alike, i will use it next time. I love the salty taste of your tip. x

jamester
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Post by jamester » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:10 pm

OK, I've been recording beats using two of the same drum rack kits, recording both tracks simultaneously with one track monitoring and the other not, with no quantization. Both tracks are giving me the exact same recording time-wise on their respective tracks, whether delay compensation is on or not. Am I missing something?
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ethios4
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Post by ethios4 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:12 pm

It makes perfect sense to me : if you are performing live and recording, you will adjust your playing so that it is in time coming out of the speakers. In this case, you don't want the recording to be pre-latency.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:14 pm

jamester wrote:OK, I've been recording beats using two of the same drum rack kits, recording both tracks simultaneously with one track monitoring and the other not, with no quantization. Both tracks are giving me the exact same recording time-wise on their respective tracks, whether delay compensation is on or not. Am I missing something?
load up a audio BUNCH of plug ins to one track. when the CPU goes high, the plug in delay compensation craps out.

or so I've been reading for years about. I've never tried it.
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kb420
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Post by kb420 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:16 pm

jamester wrote:OK, I've been recording beats using two of the same drum rack kits, recording both tracks simultaneously with one track monitoring and the other not, with no quantization. Both tracks are giving me the exact same recording time-wise on their respective tracks, whether delay compensation is on or not. Am I missing something?

Did you try loading the sample set?
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jacob_ma
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Post by jacob_ma » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:19 pm

adventurepants_ wrote:PS the thread i posted a page back covers the whole thing in excruciating detail, including several responses from Ableton employees on the issue.
I am telling you it was fixed in 7.0

then it broke again in 7.04

I believe Tarekith and others found the NEW issue again at that version.

I could be wrong but I am sure Abes' announced the latency on recording was fixed and it was a variable latency type thing..

SWAN808
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Post by SWAN808 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:23 pm

ethios4 wrote:It makes perfect sense to me : if you are performing live and recording, you will adjust your playing so that it is in time coming out of the speakers. In this case, you don't want the recording to be pre-latency.
Does that make perfect sense? We are talking about 'recording'. If you are playing live you dont neccessarily need to record. You can play live and have the set running alongside. But when you want to record - it records into Live with a delay putting the recording out of sync. Meaning that you must manually adjust it to be in time.

Unless Im missing something that doesnt seem to make much sense to me...

jamester
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Post by jamester » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:30 pm

kb420 wrote:
jamester wrote:OK, I've been recording beats using two of the same drum rack kits, recording both tracks simultaneously with one track monitoring and the other not, with no quantization. Both tracks are giving me the exact same recording time-wise on their respective tracks, whether delay compensation is on or not. Am I missing something?

Did you try loading the sample set?
Just did, but not sure what I'm supposed to see or do with it. I feel like I understand the workaround (two tracks, monitor and record) solution better than I understand the problem! :?
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SWAN808
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Post by SWAN808 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:31 pm

Quote from other Live user in the very long thread posted - pointing out at an Ableton employee:
Chris J wrote:Hi Amaury,
you're using the same arguments as were originally used for L5 but eventually it got fixed, so check back with your programmers and on this forum.

I'm not going to argue for ages like I did in the past, before you(ableton) eventually understood what was wrong and fixed it.

Do the test without any plugins, auto and off don't record the same way.
and yes L5 records midi properly, L6 doesn't

Anyway, whatever your reasons are Live should record or at least play back what you play like you played it and not shift the notes ahead making what you play sound like you can't play, period.

the compensation has to come after the recording, not when you record by shifting notes ahead. Otherwise that means the MIDI track you record is DEPENDANT on the instrument plugin you're going to use !!!
That doesn't make sense. You should be able to decide to send your midi track to another instrument if you so decide.

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