Scary thread about Live on KVR - please address!

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:23 am

Yeah Im having insomnia - got fired up over this problem!

OK - this is literally as simple as it gets - as Im doing it as a test.

2 MIDI tracks - both empty - no plugins in project.
1: has AUTO monitor
2: has OFF monitor

Arm both tracks.

Go to arrange and record several MIDI hits playing from any keyboard.

In preferences window - with O Driver Error compensation - and system latency (depending on the buffer size) - there is a marked delay where Midi track 1 is behind midi track 2. They are not in sync.

Next step - in preferences adjust Driver Error compensation in order to lower system latency to 0.

Repeat process above. No - or very little - delay between Midi track 1 and Midi track 2...

This is the process where recording MIDI live into a track is accurate.

Ableton has stated that humans unconsciously account for small latency when hearing audio played thru the latent computer system - and in turn this automatically adjusts the MIDI timing so that the correct recording for MIDI should be 'post' latency - ie what is heard and what the player is accounting for in technique. However - this is not my experience - and I have tested myself playing whilst consciously attempting to play according to a beat and what I hear myself playing using a tight percussive patch...It also appears that many others are not happy with this. Hence the fix above which uses a method ABleton has implemented to account for something else - audio driver inconsistancies....

What I want to know is - is this fix acceptable in overall terms of using Ableton - will it impact other areas? Is it a 'safe' fix?

jbone1313 · Post by **jbone1313** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:25 am

[nis] wrote:
jbone1313 wrote: Mine too! Mine too!!
Which one?

jbone1313 wrote:FWIW: I was able to adjust my Driver Error Compensation setting in Live's settings such that I was getting a perfect alignment of notes with two tracks both recording midi. One track had monitoring enabled and one track did not. (Like the previous examples). Before I made the adjustment, I was experiencing the issue. I had to switch to samples instead of milliseconds to achieve the neccessary resolution.

I wonder if that setting will stay the same my system, unless of course, I adjust my sound card latency. Any thoughts about that?

Am I missing something? Is this a good work-around?

Regarding delay comp: would one experience the delay comp issue when splitting a track's output into chains within itself? I.e., if I put a compressor on a snare track and have a dry/wet chain.

Chang · Post by **Chang** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:06 am

[nis] wrote:
SWAN808 wrote: Hi nis - thanks for the help - can you comment on my above post?
It's 4 in the morning now over here. I need to sleep. Will check back tomorrow. Can you post more details about your setup? Where are the MIDI data coming from? Which plugins are you using / playing? What is the MEASURED driver error?

jbone1313 wrote: Mine too! Mine too!!
Which one?

Chang wrote:Me too send to send no phase cancel.
Works perfectly here. Have you got an example set?

Best,
Nico

I just figure out problem. I was using the original dowload test posted in KVR so it messed up because as you say bus are last thing in chain before master inside program. Once I simply put a drumrack and fed into bus to bus to bus it all worked perfectly phase cancel perfect. I feel much better now, all work fine between buses no delay problem or phasing whatsoever. Thank you nico.

rhythminmind · Post by **rhythminmind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:43 am

[nis] wrote:Btw, I just read the thread at KVR and it looks like the forum member "vieris" has some more issues. One thing that I stumbled accross is that his example Live set had the delay compensation option turned off, which makes me wonder if this is the case in all of his sets (PDC setting is saved per set, not globally).

Even with delay compensation bused returns will not be in sync. The issue is only with bused returns not buses in general.

rhythminmind · Post by **rhythminmind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:54 am

the_planet wrote:He's just making some inflammatory post about something that Live users have already learned to deal with. He probably doesn't have his set configured properly for compensation.

Unless I'm not understanding something, of COURSE there will be latency. You press a button on your controller, and it takes a few ms to get to the software and back out through the speakers. Don't like it? Get a hardware synth and a mixer.

I record my band regularly, and our drummer plays to a click. With the right driver compensation, the audio latency is negligible. Sure, I gotta nudge it during mixdown if we absolutely need to have perfect timing to the metronome, but in a live setting it's really not a big deal.

And if anyone is really worried about it, just turn on quantization.

The issue isn't playable latency it's that monitored & unmonitored tracks record differently.
unmonitored tracks record like any other DAW, monitored tracks record the delayed output of what you hear.
Thats all that was being pointed out.

Turn off monitoring on your tracks while recording your band, i bet you won't need to nudge.

rhythminmind · Post by **rhythminmind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:11 am

It's not a big conspiracy. This is just how Live is. Take a look at Lives own Driver Error Compensation test Monitoring is off for hardware accuracy.

rhythminmind · Post by **rhythminmind** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:35 am

jbone1313 wrote:FWIW: I was able to adjust my Driver Error Compensation setting in Live's settings such that I was getting a perfect alignment of notes with two tracks both recording midi. One track had monitoring enabled and one track did not. (Like the previous examples). Before I made the adjustment, I was experiencing the issue. I had to switch to samples instead of milliseconds to achieve the neccessary resolution.

I wonder if that setting will stay the same my system, unless of course, I adjust my sound card latency. Any thoughts about that?

Am I missing something? Is this a good work-around?

Regarding delay comp: would one experience the delay comp issue when splitting a track's output into chains within itself? I.e., if I put a compressor on a snare track and have a dry/wet chain.

It will only be perfect alignment in that current state. You would have to re-compensate for every added plugin or VI with latency to have perfect record accuracy while monitoring. The 2 track method is the only safe way. Have a look
This is all recorded from the same key press. Why Live records post plugin/system latency i still don't know..

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:15 am

Damn

I can confirm that adjusting the driver error compensation does not work as said above - as soon as you add plugins - the MIDI goes back out of sync...

crumhorn · Post by **crumhorn** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:50 am

Why not just record on two tracks in parallel. One with monitor off and one with monitor auto. you only need to place an instrument on the track with monitor auto.

Then you will get the best of both worlds. One recording of the MIDI data as it arrives and one of the MIDI data adjusted for latency.

Seems like a good system to me. What other sequencer gives you that option?

Did I get something wrong?

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:59 am

I just believe the fundamental theory is flawed. That most users unconsciously account and play to compensate for the delay. I understand how concert pianists will do that - but I dont think the majority of Ableton users are concert pianists - or record VI in the same way or conditions a concert pianist does...

Whilst I see that using a separate MIDI track is a work-around - I think this heavily detracts from the workflow - which I took to be one of the benefits of Live. I dont want to have to fiddle about re-routing all the tracks I record and shifting MIDI data. For me recording MIDI in is a fundamental basis for making music - and if I have a buzz kill hitting me at that early stage - I think - whats the point?

Perhaps this is a bigger issue for me because I am attemtping to migrate from Logic - which does not have this issue....

Anyways - the answer I got from Ableton support was that this is not going to be changed - or a simple optional choice given. Which is surprising given the 21 page thread on the subject here:

http://forum.ableton.com//viewtopic.php ... 8133e58840

and the further discussion recently...

soundbee · Post by **soundbee** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:17 pm

I'm with you SWAN808. It's a really awkward method.

I think there are probably bigger issues that the Abes are dealing with. They have probably programmed themselves into a corner and don't know how to get out of it.

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:30 pm

j2j wrote:
kb420 wrote:So, j2j, your audio cancels out completely?
Yes...

Well j2j, I don't see how the audio in that example set cancelled out completely in your setup when an Ableton tech support person is saying that Live isn't even designed to work like that.

[nis] wrote:Hi all,

much confusion here. I've had an exhausting day and its already 2:30 in the morning, so I can't answer all questions, but these two things first:

1. PDC on Send/Return tracks:
Plugins on return tracks will be fully compensated just like on any other tracks. One thing that won't work is to feed a send into itself. This makes plugin delay compensation technically impossible as its caught in an endless loop.

2. No phase cancellation when you route returns back to an audio track:

This is true. The reason for this is the way how Live calculates your audio signals. A complete explanation would be a bit too much here, but in a nutshell it works like this: Live looks at all your tracks, collects the data of the current sample which needs to leave your computer next and sends it to your audio driver. This is one calculation cycle. Once this has been done, it starts the next calculation cycle for the next sample and so on. The return tracks are the last parts included in a calculation cycle. If you now route an audio signal from a return track back into an ordinary audio track, it will always be late, because the previous calculation cycle (which contained the data of your audio and MIDI tracks) has already been finished and has literally left your computer. This makes it impossible to get complete phase cancellation in such a scenario. In theory you should get the same problems in any other DAW, perhaps just at a different point than on the return tracks.

I'll answer the other things regarding MIDI and audio recording tomorrow.

Best,
Nico

So I guess your post was a complete lie!!!!

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:35 pm

j2j wrote:
Truth is, I seem to have really good luck with Ableton. Maybe it is because of my simple set up.

LMFAO!

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:39 pm

yes it is an interesting theory that this 'feature' came first - then the justification of - 'well a classical pianist etc etc' came second....

And now they cant fix it. Which explains why despite many calls to change it - they say it will not be changed.

crumhorn · Post by **crumhorn** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 pm

It's an interesting theory, but it's based on absolutely no evidence. The fact that it does record data as received when monitor is off shows that it would not be hard to do, and it also fit's in perfectly with the official explanation.

I'm no concert pianist - just a humble keyboardist, but personally I like the fact that it works the way it does, I have the choice of recording audio or MIDI knowing the result will be the same. I'd be upset if they changed it TBH

Having said that I'm surprised they don't make it an option in the preferences, since people feel so strongly about it.