live 7 sample rate conversion poor? - comparison chart

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
Posts: 14705
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Post by Angstrom » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:57 pm

Hmmm.
I would suggest anyone wanting to form an opinion about this to make a very simple test themselves . Pitching a sample up is a simple test, and you will see that if you do not put Hi-Q mode on you will hear artifacts. SO turn the damn thing on !

Test for yourself, do not rely on weird rumours

1: get an operator, or similar device capable of making a clean sine wave
2: make a clean sine wave at 9khz
3: record that to an audio clip using resampling
4: Play the audio clip back through a Spectrum so you can see the plot at 9khz .. see what volume it registers. (probably about -12db)
5: make two copies of that clip, transpose one to +12 (18khz), the other to +24 (36khz) ... this clip wave is now way above nyquist and ought to produce aliasing
6: play both of those back while watching Spectrum

Results?


Now then, do you see a plot at all on the clip which has been transposed up 24 semitones ?
What volume is the Spectrum showing for that wave ? Is it at -12db, like the original wave ?

then you have Hi-Q mode switched off, so now look at the clip and turn Hi-Q mode on.

So where did that aliased signal go?
it's at -95db, that's the same volume of a mouse coughing in the house next door

Image

Unfortunately the SRC people seem to have run tests without Hi-Q mode active.
which is a bit of a shame !

Tone Deft
Posts: 23911
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:32 pm

nice post Angstrom.

pitching up is different than sample rate conversion, right? or is there a correlation I'm not picking up? that is a very cool test though, Hi-Q is on!!

I was wrong, that graph is in Adobe Audition, does anyone have who'd be willing to give it a go at testing?
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

Nod
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:18 pm

Post by Nod » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:32 am

leedsquietman wrote:Never use DAWs for sample rate conversion is always one of the rules I stick to. I use Voxengo's R8Brain Pro
+1 to both. However those seeking a good freebie for the job should take a look at Audiomove:

https://public.msli.com/lcs/audiomove/

Coupe70
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Mainz / Germany
Contact:

Post by Coupe70 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:32 am

I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that Hi-Q mode ON/OFF is
only an option for realtime sample rate conversion. So when rendering
it is always Hi-Q...
Phongemeinschaft (Live-ElectroJazz / NuJazz)
Homepage - youtube - Like! :-)
Live 9 (32Bit), HP DV7, i5 2,53GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win7 (64Bit)

tamtam
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Post by tamtam » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:27 am

Angstrom wrote:Hmmm.
Test for yourself, do not rely on weird rumours
[IGNORE THIS READ ON BELOW]

This is about src not warping, so your test doesn't apply, and I'm pretty sure you pressed the hi-Q button in the clip window, not the scr one in the prefs, so you are actually spreading and thickening the weird rumors with your post.

That being said, there is no issue to discuss here, its the usual know-nothing user that read somwhere that live's audio quality sucks in one way or another, hasn't read the manual and doesn't know whats going on, how it works or how to do it properly (like with the many tools mentioned by others in the thread and hinted by the quoted manual), doesn't even hear a difference himself etc etc etc etc etc etc.
Last edited by tamtam on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23911
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:37 am

nice post Coupe70.
tamtam wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Hmmm.
Test for yourself, do not rely on weird rumours
This is about src not warping, so your test doesn't apply, and I'm pretty sure you pressed the hi-Q button in the clip window, not the scr one in the prefs, so you are actually spreading and thickening the weird rumors with your post.
ease up there Chief.

either way it proves something, even with your doubts it shows how and where a Hi-Q button can affect the data. your accusation is also circumstantial, you assume which button he hit. IMO Angstrom knows his shit, my money is on him.
That being said, there is no issue to discuss here, its the usual know-nothing user that read somwhere that live's audio quality sucks in one way or another, hasn't read the manual and doesn't know whats going on, how it works or how to do it properly (like with the many tools mentioned by others in the thread and hinted by the quoted manual), doesn't even hear a difference himself etc etc etc etc etc etc.
I take it you don't know how to read the plots. they're real. it doesn't mean Live sucks, it shows what not to do.

if I was at work I'd check the Live 7 audio white paper on this, anyone THAT bored?
http://downloads.ableton.com/manuals/70 ... eet-en.pdf


I give you 4 out of 5 crybabies for your post
ImageImageImageImage
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

tamtam
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Post by tamtam » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:39 am

Tone Deft wrote:I give you 4 out of 5 crybabies for your post
ImageImageImageImage
i tried so hard. How on earth does one achieve 5/5?

Tone Deft
Posts: 23911
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:45 am

- it was waaaay too short.
- you didn't demand a refund on Live.
- you didn't threaten to quit the forum (I love that one.)
- MINUS POINTS FOR NOT BEING IN ALL CAPS.
- you didn't create a new thread to protest this thread.
- you kept your compusure.


I'm downgrading you to two emos.
ImageImage
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

xh9o
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:18 am
Contact:

Post by xh9o » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:46 am

ableton is not made for top notch audio manipulation, its more a good sequencer with nice features and great usability. sample rate conversion is a difficult topic, i had great disappointments whenever doing it (most in samplitude). therefore i changed into recording everything on 44.1/16 and just try to give my best there.
-

Image

feel her fountain....
she dies.

live7 battery synthlite2 matrix1000 synplant operator moogfilter transverb lofi retrodelay

tamtam
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Post by tamtam » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:52 am

Tone Deft wrote:
I'm downgrading you to two emos.
ImageImage
That downgrade sucks! Even more than the latest live update.
(I'll stop it here, but I think I won a emo there at least. Plus my money is still on angstroms wrong button)

Tone Deft
Posts: 23911
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:00 am

I'll give you an extra half emo, I'll leave it up to you to cut yourself in half.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

Angstrom
Posts: 14705
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Post by Angstrom » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:20 am

tamtam wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Hmmm.
Test for yourself, do not rely on weird rumours
This is about src not warping, so your test doesn't apply, and I'm pretty sure you pressed the hi-Q button in the clip window, not the scr one in the prefs, so you are actually spreading and thickening the weird rumors with your post.
Now then how about wondering what the connection is between the preference "sample rate conversion", and the toggle on each clip. You think it is separate in some way?
wrong.
The preference is the global setting, and the clip toggle is the instance setting.
Set the preferences default and create a new clip, see what it is set at. You just learned something. Hey how amazing I set the preference and the new clip is set at HI-Q and whoa! it doesn't alias, how fucking amazing!


As far as up-pitching as related to increasing the sample rate. When you double the sample playback rate you double the pitch.
I wonder what happens if I have a sample recorded at 44.1 and I transpose it up two octaves. How exactly does that work again? Surely it can't involve any kind of sample rate increase

lets once again consider 44.1*2*2

Hmm.

wait a minute what is that preference called
"Default SR and Pitch conversion" = High Quality
well, lets just ignore that, lets not do any tests ourselves, lets just post on KVR.

leonard
Posts: 893
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:52 am
Location: ? ?

Post by leonard » Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:35 am

Tone Deft wrote: ImageImageImageImage
from a distance it looks like that babies crying and wanking.
Mulholland Drive anyone?
???

leedsquietman
Posts: 6659
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
Location: greater toronto area

Post by leedsquietman » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:26 pm

Angstrom knows nothing (pass the lithium) ?? People who can't hear a difference know nothing (even though I have 20 + years recording and engineering experience on analog and digital technology and according to my audiology test in Nov 2008, very good, sensitive hearing) ??? TamTam, How many of these DAWS and audio editors have you PERSONALLY done SRC on and made mathematical style analysis?


Tell me TamTam, what do you bring to the table in terms of expertise ??? Because I like to learn from people who REALLY know something from relevant experience. Even experienced users can learn more from such gurus.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

tamtam
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:43 pm

Post by tamtam » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:06 pm

I was drunk and wrong and very very rude, big apologies to angstrom & the op (whom I meant with the most moronic statements in the second paragraph).

Post Reply