Steinberg getting real on pricing - finally !

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
rarelyseen
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Post by rarelyseen » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:16 am

jonny72 wrote: Live is very expensive compared to the competition and the standard package doesn't come with anywhere near enough content.
Once upon a time:

Emagic Logic Platinum: 999 €
Space Designer: 599 €
EXS24 II: 329 €
ES-1: 50 €
ES-2: 279 €
Evoc 20: 179 €
EVP88: 219 €
EVP73: 99 €
+ EVDXYZ988: xxx € ???

Today:
Emagic = Apple
Steinberg = Yamaha

vs.

Ableton = Ableton
Live 8 = 349 €
Suite 8 = 549 €

Still sounds like a good deal to me even though they're not affiliated with one of the big playaz.

hacktheplanet
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Post by hacktheplanet » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:17 am

Cue a whole forum of pissed off Cubase users who paid $900. :lol:
Image

vicz
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Post by vicz » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:31 pm

UK Apple Store

Logic Studio £312
Ableton Suite £527.53

You get a LOT more in the Logic box.

However, I have both, but use Live 95% of the time...

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:08 pm

Nuendo to be fair is aimed at post production and broadcast. It contains support for a lot of file formats which are industry standard in those areas not included in anything else except PTHD.

You can use Cubase instead if all your focus is just stereo or 5.1 channel audio/midi with a few video options. Cubase has the same audio and MIDI engine as Nuendo. If you don't need Nuendo's extra features (probably 95% don't) then there is really no need to go stupid and spend the extra.

SB gave the impression they were doing away with the dongle for a while on their forum but then they go and buy Synchrosoft, the company that makes and authorizes dongles for many products (including SB products). So might not happen for a while yet...
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

j250x
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Post by j250x » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:27 pm

I've bought the education versions of logic 8 and ableton suite in the past 12 months. I'd say that logic studio is the equivalent of ableton suite as you get (roughly) the same amount of stuff. However, I payed £300 for ableton suite, and only £120 for logic studio.

The difference is that apple want to get students using their products, because they know that the DAW you learn first is usually the one you end up preferring and (eventually) buying the full version of a few years down the line.

Ableton should really kick their student prices down because it would get more people using the product and increase their user base by a huge amount. I'm on a music tech course at university and there is only one other Live user in a group of 35.

I know that there's the LE edition, but for a student doing serious work, this sucks. It's far too limited and you can't do anything useful with it.

Another gripe is that ableton's prices are all in euros. And since the exchange rate between pounds and euros has gone down the pan, it would now cost me £360 to buy what I bought 6 months ago for £300. Logic meanwhile has stayed the same price.

leedsquietman
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Post by leedsquietman » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:42 pm

yes, although things to consider though

Live is cross platform - so needs extra development on both sides, and given the MS are bringing a new o/s to the fore soon, more nightmares for the programming team.

As you rightly said, Apple use Logic as a loss leader - something to tempt people over from PC, the mac is like a dongle. It's good marketing on their behalf. If Apple ever did make Logic available for PC, it's price would probably increase as they would have to pay for development and coding etc.

Ableton give a good educational discount, more so than some other companies. And, they even offer educational UPGRADES. I don't know about Logic, but Steinberg and several others do not. You can buy the original product with educational discount, but any upgrades must be full price (for upgrades).

I don't think Live is overpriced by much, for what it does, as a niche product in a niche market it is worth it, It would just be prudent and nice if the company carefully considers pricing in this wake of competitors slashing prices and people losing their disposal income to recession. Any kind of breaks afforded will be really appreciated.

As for exchange rates - always a problem, but these things always rebound. Like in Canada, our dollar went from being worth 63 US cents, tgo being worth more than the US dollar at around 1 dollar 8 cents US for a time and now it's back to around 81 cents US. When I bought Live 7 that worked out great for me, as the weak US dollar led me to save money on the purchase (as there is no option to purchase in canadaian dollars), but the upgrade to L8 will cost me about 15-20% more. By the time Live 9 comes around, the pound might be back on top of the euro, rough with the smooth.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

inmazevo
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Post by inmazevo » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:43 pm

Ouch. Just noticed the Cubase 5 upgrade pricing is pathetic for those a few versions old:
$399.

Wow... $100 off the full price.
Think I know how they're paying for the full version price reduction.

- zevo
infinite density, zero volume

six_o_clock_crow
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Post by six_o_clock_crow » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:56 pm

vicz wrote:UK Apple Store

Logic Studio £312
Ableton Suite £527.53

You get a LOT more in the Logic box.

However, I have both, but use Live 95% of the time...
What you don't get in the Logic box is... 'session view'.

I know I sound like a stuck record, and I know the point everyone is making...

But I still say that Live vs. A.N. Other Sequencer is always going to be a false comparison because only Live has the 'session view'.
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Tarekith
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Post by Tarekith » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:59 pm

Live doesn't have Mainstage, Soundtrack Pro, 50GB of content, or WaveBurner either. There's always something different about each app, doens't mean you still can't make some comparison on price.
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Yhtomit
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Post by Yhtomit » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:09 pm

Operator and SAMPLER (!!) need to be a part of the basic package!!!!!!!

There is no synth and NO COOL SAMPLER in the basic package!! What is up with that, Ableton? Stick it in there already.. :roll:

vicz
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Post by vicz » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:40 pm

six_o_clock_crow wrote:
vicz wrote:UK Apple Store

Logic Studio £312
Ableton Suite £527.53

You get a LOT more in the Logic box.

However, I have both, but use Live 95% of the time...
What you don't get in the Logic box is... 'session view'.

I know I sound like a stuck record, and I know the point everyone is making...

But I still say that Live vs. A.N. Other Sequencer is always going to be a false comparison because only Live has the 'session view'.
But you do get a basic notator - crikey you even get this in Garageband - so you can play along with midi clips, a major omission from Live so far as I am concerned. If the session view is worth 200 quid to you thats great. Personally I use Live most of the time because I find Logic's Environment window baffling and twenty zillion entries on every menu unnecessarily complicated. Live has the session view, true, but the relationship between session and arrangement views is not simple or particularly intuitive. And +1 to the multi-take issue, other DAWs have a much more intuitive and usable approach to this fundamental need, if you spend a lot of time recording live acts (personally I don't). And Logic is bundled with some pretty good instruments and sexy effects. And Soundtrack. And Mainstage. ...

six_o_clock_crow
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Post by six_o_clock_crow » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:07 pm

Next up on debating hour, 'Pro Tools HD vs. Renoise' :lol: After all, they both run on a computer, they both enable you to make music... :lol:

My point is, why should Ableton feel the need to reduce their prices when they have something unique? Where is the incentive? If you want the session view, you are going to have to buy Live.

I genuinely don't think including Operator or Sampler (or both) will make you choose Live over Logic, becuase if your choice is determined by that criteria then you could easily get more VST for your cash elsewhere. You either need what Live does uniquely, or you can get by with another sequencer.

Steinberg HAVE to do something about pricing because of Logic, the stuff in Sonar, and the way Reaper is proving how much you can get for no money. They're forcing Steinberg's hand. They have to act because Cubase is directly comparable to those other apps.

If people want to see Ableton include more stuff in the basic package, then fair enough. We all want more features. I just don't think it's a valid arguement to say they should include more stuff or drop the price for fear of losing customers: they will get customers all the time they have this unique performance angle.

A more interesting question for me is pondering why no one has tried taking Ableton on in terms of an easy to use live performance tool. Because until that happens, I don't see Live's price coming down.

Now, Live vs. Usine: that's surely a debate worth having?
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vicz
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Post by vicz » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:32 pm

Hmm well you have been trying to persuade a Live user to use Live :roll:

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:54 pm

six_o_clock_crow wrote: A more interesting question for me is pondering why no one has tried taking Ableton on in terms of an easy to use live performance tool. Because until that happens, I don't see Live's price coming down.
This is the fundamental difference. Logic/Apple blew it with Mainstage I think. To a person like me who uses sequences of synths they sure as hell are NOT bringing with them live, I'll always have some audio files running along with soft synths and guitars live etc. Mainstage doesn't fit the bill at all.

My main reason for using Live is the ability to map sequencer features to key commands or MIDI notes, beyond that any sequencer would work. On that line, why is it so difficult in Live to come up with a fast way to map buttons to switching soft synths??? You can map a knob, but turning a knob 25% to switch soft synths isn't at all intuitive.

six_o_clock_crow
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Post by six_o_clock_crow » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:54 pm

vicz wrote:Hmm well you have been trying to persuade a Live user to use Live :roll:
Indeed.

Tell you what... here's where Ableton are missing a trick.

They should drop the price of the Suite to £100, but remove one feature: session view.

Then perhaps everyone will be happy and they will have a whole load of new customers... :roll: :roll: :roll:
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