What would be awesome

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
j250x
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What would be awesome

Post by j250x » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:39 pm

I'd love to see a live-like app designed for video processing. Something with exactly the same workflow and user interface but with everything designed for video rather than audio.

So you could add video clips in session view, or use live video input, have everything sync'd to a master tempo, apply video effects, use video synths controlled by MIDI, save presets to a library, essentially everything that ableton does for audio but with video instead.

I don't think that integrating this into Live as it is would be a good idea as it would only serve to make live less stable. But to copy the workflow ideas into a new application has incredible potential.

Obviously it would be difficult for Ableton to develop something like this themselves but there's no reason they couldn't license the user interface ideas to another software developer.

Now if only you could buy multiple video input interfaces like you can buy multiple audio input interfaces!

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:51 pm

Cough Max for Live cough...

Jitter is a video processing environment built into max and soon built into Live.
On top of that we'll probably be able to make Live talk with Apple's Quartz Composer, Modul8 and on the Pc side VVVV I think and anything else that supports OSC and MIDI input.

j250x
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Post by j250x » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:17 pm

Max for Live might let you use bits of jitter, but it couldn't provide a complete video solution like if the whole of live were built for video. You wouldn't be able to play video from clips in session view, you wouldn't be able to mix video using the Live mixer system. You wouldn't be able to pass video along the signal chain going through various processors.

UKRuss
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Post by UKRuss » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:17 pm

Coo.Thats made up my mind not to buy M4L...I have no idea what you're talking about. :D

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:33 pm

j250x wrote:Max for Live might let you use bits of jitter, but it couldn't provide a complete video solution like if the whole of live were built for video. You wouldn't be able to play video from clips in session view, you wouldn't be able to mix video using the Live mixer system. You wouldn't be able to pass video along the signal chain going through various processors.
Really? Care to share the link to the page that details these limitations you speak off?

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Post by jonny72 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:03 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Cough Max for Live cough...

Jitter is a video processing environment built into max and soon built into Live.
On top of that we'll probably be able to make Live talk with Apple's Quartz Composer, Modul8 and on the Pc side VVVV I think and anything else that supports OSC and MIDI input.
Its a bit worrying that Max for Live is being used as the answer to so many questions and feature requests. If Ableton start thinking the same was it will be very bad news.

Sure you might be able to do this with Max, but it doesn't change the fact that it would be better (and cheaper) if this functionality was available in Live. It would seem a logical step to bring the video handling more in line with audio.
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hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:11 pm

This whole conversation gets a lot more funnier when you realize a Cycling developer added the video feature that is currently in Live. And the last person to ever write a pluggo for this almost immediately got a job at Ableton.

j250x
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Post by j250x » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:11 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
j250x wrote:Max for Live might let you use bits of jitter, but it couldn't provide a complete video solution like if the whole of live were built for video. You wouldn't be able to play video from clips in session view, you wouldn't be able to mix video using the Live mixer system. You wouldn't be able to pass video along the signal chain going through various processors.
Really? Care to share the link to the page that details these limitations you speak off?
Well think about it. What Max4Live does is allow you to place either an instrument or effect unit in a signal chain which you can program in Max. That's it. Live's systems are still in place for everything else. You will send digital audio into a Max effect unit, and you will get digital audio out which is passed to the next device in the signal chain. You can't pass video along that signal chain, it's an AUDIO chain. You might be able to somehow integrate 2 Max effect units to throw a video signal from one to the other, but it wouldn't pass along the signal chain, that would be a workaround.

Same for the mixer, it's still an audio mixer. And the clip system is completely unaffected by Max for live. You wouldn't be able to get it to play video clips.

Machinate
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Post by Machinate » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:12 pm

j250x wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
j250x wrote:Max for Live might let you use bits of jitter, but it couldn't provide a complete video solution like if the whole of live were built for video. You wouldn't be able to play video from clips in session view, you wouldn't be able to mix video using the Live mixer system. You wouldn't be able to pass video along the signal chain going through various processors.
Really? Care to share the link to the page that details these limitations you speak off?
Well think about it. What Max4Live does is allow you to place either an instrument or effect unit in a signal chain which you can program in Max. That's it.
Please do us a favour and read up on this. You're thankfull terribly terribly wrong.

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Post by hoffman2k » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:16 pm

j250x wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
j250x wrote:Max for Live might let you use bits of jitter, but it couldn't provide a complete video solution like if the whole of live were built for video. You wouldn't be able to play video from clips in session view, you wouldn't be able to mix video using the Live mixer system. You wouldn't be able to pass video along the signal chain going through various processors.
Really? Care to share the link to the page that details these limitations you speak off?
Well think about it. What Max4Live does is allow you to place either an instrument or effect unit in a signal chain which you can program in Max. That's it. Live's systems are still in place for everything else. You will send digital audio into a Max effect unit, and you will get digital audio out which is passed to the next device in the signal chain. You can't pass video along that signal chain, it's an AUDIO chain. You might be able to somehow integrate 2 Max effect units to throw a video signal from one to the other, but it wouldn't pass along the signal chain, that would be a workaround.

Same for the mixer, it's still an audio mixer. And the clip system is completely unaffected by Max for live. You wouldn't be able to get it to play video clips.
Watch the videos again. There are objects that allow access to functions you couldn't access before and on top of that there will be an official API.
That means that nobody is stopped to create a 4th kind of track for video that is housed in a different window. You can even make it look exactly like session view and so far nobody has said that you can't use the dropclip object to drop video into max from the Live interface.

And you can do more than just mix video clips. You can mix LIVE video and output it to multiple sources.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you can't say its impossible with such strong conviction without backing it up. The game has changed, so have the possibilities.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:58 pm

video is nothing without audio.

there's little to no interest in video with Live users. a few might pop up in this thread but a vast majority of Live users haven't even tried the video functionality in Live. maybe if the OP had a clue he'd put 'video' in the thread title rather than the generic (lame) title he chose. I mean, he could be talking about anything, instead it's *yawn* video. most non-triumphant.

when Live goes video is probably when I stop upgrading. video eats up resources (drive space, CPU, RAM) MUCH faster than audio.

no point in arguing with this guy, he doesn't want jitter to solve his problems. I wonder if he's ever seen it. given my rant above I gotta admit just the help files for jitter blew my mind.
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j250x
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Post by j250x » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:13 pm

I've watched the max for live video again, and I see about the API thing. I must have missed that last time I watched it. Apologies. If you think you can do what I'm suggesting then fine, it could be possible, although I would still prefer a dedicated version rather than a max system for video.


Tone Deft,

I actually own Max/MSP/Jitter, and I'm well aware of what you can do with it. My misunderstanding came from how integrated Max was into the Live system.

And if you actually read my original post. I quite clearly stated that I didn't think that INTEGRATING video into Live was a good idea. I suggested building a completely separate application. For people who do want/need video.

And if you find the idea of video totally boring and it doesn't interest you. Why bother to join in this discussion?

bosonHavoc
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Post by bosonHavoc » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:14 pm

hey j250x, have you looked at livid?

i dont know much about it but my friend uses it to VJ
and from what i've seen of the app its pretty sweet.

j250x
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Post by j250x » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:18 pm

Livid looks interesting, I'll try the demo, thanks for the tip.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:18 pm

j250x wrote:And if you find the idea of video totally boring and it doesn't interest you. Why bother to join in this discussion?
I was wondering what was so awesome, so I joined the conversation, hence my snarky quip on choice of thread title.

Ableton is changing its business model a bit. max4Live is an add on product, I'm pretty sure the Serato thing will be another add-on. when you get an APC40 it comes with an APC40 version of Live (or it tweaks your current install.) maybe they'll make another add on where you can not only create an audio or midi track, but also a video track. if people want video they can buy the add on.

I'm a problem solver by nature, I like the challenges. surely we agree that the options are endless for max within Live. maybe it's not your perfect vision, but I bet it'll get you there.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, guitars, JX305, Nova
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