How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
OtherJesus
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Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:03 am

How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by OtherJesus » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:00 am

Hi, I'm really wanting to buy Ableton Suite right now...but I want to make sure it can handle multi-output VSTi's properly.

So, basically I'm wondering, the following:

My main VSTi is the Proteus X2.
It can output 16 channels of MIDI on one instance of Proteus.

I want to be able to have 16 different MIDI tracks for each instrument and be able to control the volume, pan, etc. from each MIDI track 1-16.
I then want to be able to render to audio (if I desire) with a few simple clicks.

If someone could quickly and accurately clear this up for me, I'm gonna buy the boxed version of Ableton suite right now.

Thanks guys.

(by the way, I'm a previous/current Logic user since 2.6, but I just bought a MIKO TSE and Reaper just doesn't do it for me when it comes to MIDI and Ableton has been calling me for about a year now...)
http://www.myspace.com/waxthedecks <----view my music and video--

Tone Deft
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:05 am

no clue TBH. I imagine you would run it in rewire mode and make individual audio tracks that are set to the VST's outputs.

the demo is fully functional for two weeks and if you buy now you can get some crazy discounts (shakes fist in your direction!)
http://www.ableton.com/free-trial
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OtherJesus
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by OtherJesus » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:21 am

Tone Deft wrote:no clue TBH. I imagine you would run it in rewire mode and make individual audio tracks that are set to the VST's outputs.

the demo is fully functional for two weeks and if you buy now you can get some crazy discounts (shakes fist in your direction!)
http://www.ableton.com/free-trial
Sweet, thanks for the reply.
I actually just downloaded the demo... don't know why I just didn't do that before.

I'm not too familiar with rewire since I don't use Reason... but I imagine the Proteus could work in the same way...

By the way, I'm in the Bay too. I'm right outside Vallejo.
http://www.myspace.com/waxthedecks <----view my music and video--

rpc9943
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by rpc9943 » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:01 am

if you can figure out how to rout it out, you can save an instance of it and even drag n drop it or save it as your default template...

ive never used that proteus vsti you speak of, but if it simply has that many audio outs built into it, it should be a snap to rout out :) simply make all your audio tracks recieve from each individual line out from the vsti track...

RonC
http://theconsolationproject.bandcamp.com
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OtherJesus
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by OtherJesus » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:35 am

rpc9943 wrote:if you can figure out how to rout it out, you can save an instance of it and even drag n drop it or save it as your default template...

ive never used that proteus vsti you speak of, but if it simply has that many audio outs built into it, it should be a snap to rout out :) simply make all your audio tracks recieve from each individual line out from the vsti track...

RonC
Hi Ron,

Been working on it for about an hour now, and in the Live manual (yes, I read manuals) it suggest using what is called an "External Instrument" to route the outputs of my Proteus X2.

It's a hair confusing so far because the language of the Live manual is foreign to me (they appear to use different terms than I am used to).

It seems like I'm on the right track... but the routing is giving me trouble... just when I think I've got it, the audio starts coming on a different track... and then there is no audio... I'm confused.

I've actually got to sleep now...
but if you (or anyone) could give me a step by or step, or even point me in the direction of a previous thread, article, link or youtube video, etc., I would greatly appreciate it.
http://www.myspace.com/waxthedecks <----view my music and video--

spookyrockstar
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by spookyrockstar » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:30 am

You're on the right track using External Instruments!

Not in front of my computer at the moment, but by memory.....

1.) Drop an instance of your multi-out VST into the session view in Ableton.

2.) Load instruments into channel 1 and 2 (and so on) of the multi-out VST.

3.) Make sure that each instrument on your particular VST is set to output to a different audio channel. (Different method for different multi-out VSTs)

4.) Create instance(s) of the External Instrument.

5.) Set the parameters of EACH External Instrument to send and recieve from ONE corresponding midi channel and ONE corresponding audio (stereo or mono) out of your Multi-out VST.

6.) Do the same for any additional Instruments/External Instruments.

Hope this isn't repetetive to what you may have already leanred, and hope it helps!!

IMO: it really handles multi-out VSTs elegantly, (as well as almost everything else) and once it's set up, you can route all the channels to render individually or as a single track!!

Also, with external instruments, you can use VST FX on each instrument!! (Activate multi-out on a drum VST and process each drum with different plugs!)

Good luck!

crumhorn
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by crumhorn » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:40 am

This image shows the set up I've been using with Sampletank since Live 5.

Not sure why you would use the External Instrument plug in for a VST, but I only got Live 7 recently, maybe I need to read the manual as well

I also tried setting it up in an Instrument Rack, which would be ideal, but Instrument Racks don't handle multiple output VSTs (grrrr).

Image

I've just realised that the picture doesn't show the audio routing. As it stands all the audio outs would be combined on track 1. I'll do another screen shot with audio routing and upload it shortly.
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mholloway
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by mholloway » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:57 am

crumhorn wrote: I've just realised that the picture doesn't show the audio routing. As it stands all the audio outs would be combined on track 1. I'll do another screen shot with audio routing and upload it shortly.
could you please? i'm curious... I actually use the External Instrument plug for multi-output VSTi's, namely kontakt3. I just do it because, well, it's the way I know...and it's fairly easy to setup the midi/audio routing with it. I'm interested in your way, the midi setup is straightforward, but I don't get how you are routing the audio without the Ext Inst.....please show.
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crumhorn
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by crumhorn » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:52 am

OK, here is one that shows the MIDI and Audio routing for 3 parts in SampleTank

Track one contains the VST but it's inputs and outputs aren't used.
The other tracks are in pairs MIDI -> VST and VST -> Audio

There is a mistake in this picture: the track "ST1 Audio" is set to Post Mixer, which means the fader on the first track will effect the output level.I should have set it to Pre FX

If you wanted you could loose the track "ST1 Audio" and use the output from track 1, instead of setting it to Sends Only.

Monitor needs to be set to In for the audio tracks but MIDI tracks should be set to Auto for recording and playing back clips - I set them to In for playing from a keyboard controller.

Image
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

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doremifa
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by doremifa » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:58 am

spookyrockstar
Oh man!!! U saved my ass from execution :) ! That was THE BIGGEST PAIN IN MY ASS, or rather in Live's ass from my point of view. I was rethinking of the most major Ableton flaws as a DAW for me, and I have put this one as number one in my list! And now I found out that the solution have been offered in Live 7 already! Puff :)

Now I can work with so much more joy in Live.

OtherJesus
That's the 'old' classic method that now will never be used by me

crumhorn
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by crumhorn » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:01 am

mholloway wrote:... I actually use the External Instrument plug for multi-output VSTi's, namely kontakt3. I just do it because, well, it's the way I know...and it's fairly easy to setup the midi/audio routing with it....
Interesting about the External Instrument plug. I don't use external hardware synths so I had just assumed it was not relevant. ("Assume makes an Ass of U and Me" as they say)
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

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doremifa
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by doremifa » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:24 am

I actually use the External Instrument plug for multi-output VSTi's, namely kontakt3
Please discribe how you do it in k3. I'm using is too. I have routed midi, but the audio seems to work only from one main channel where K3 is. So I cannot pan, change volume, use any effects except midi and so forth. I no almost nothing about kontakt multi outs, auxes, how to manage that shit and so on. As I guess from your post I need to set different audio out too. Where do I get it from? How many I may have at all? My audio card in Ableton setup shows 4 stereo pairs of outputs. Does this mean I can use only 3 external instruments apart from one is on K3? (that would suck very much)

Please explain all that :)

doremifa
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by doremifa » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:20 am

Oh I got it myself after an hour of triyng ;)

1 - U need to put Kontakt instance on a separate track
2 - Then make as much auxes as you need (you can make maximum and make it default), cos if you make any new in process you will need to reload all your instruments
3 - Give every instrument its personal aux volume
4 - Mute st.1 volume in mixer
5 - Now put an EI on a fresh midi track in Ableton and change Midi to - to your K3 instrument midi channel, and Audio from - same instrument aux number. You can also give an aux any name you want (in K), like the exact instrument name so you wont confuse anyhow

Cheers

Probably that is not the only way, but it is a clearly working one - You can pan, change volume and add personal effects to any of kontakt instruments individually! Hurray!!! Suck my bloody.. oh just anything ;)

barstu
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by barstu » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:49 am

External instrument is really handy for Reason. It saves having 2 channels (midi send, audio receive)for one sound.

OtherJesus
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Re: How does Live handle multi-output VSTi's

Post by OtherJesus » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:17 am

I think what spookyrockstar suggested is what I want...

because I don't want a MIDI track for MIDI and an Audio track for the Audio, which is the method that crumb suggested...

I want ONE track to handle both.

Logic does it just fine, so Live should be able to do it too.

I'm gonna try it in a few hours here when I get into my study time.
http://www.myspace.com/waxthedecks <----view my music and video--

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