truth and.. truth

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Tone Deft
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:16 pm

you raise animals for food. some get sick, become lame, they have to be euthanized, that's life on an animal farm.
question is, how can you kill an animal with the least amount of suffering?
that's what that HBO documentary talks about, watch the links.

the order of intelligence (AFAIK)
humans
apes
dolphins
dogs
pigs

how would you want your dog euthanized?


I just don't care for pork because they live in their own shit, but I still eat it from time to time. food is good, enjoy life, but you don't have to be a dick about it.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Machinesworking
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:46 pm

Tone Deft wrote:you raise animals for food. some get sick, become lame, they have to be euthanized, that's life on an animal farm.
question is, how can you kill an animal with the least amount of suffering?
that's what that HBO documentary talks about, watch the links.

the order of intelligence (AFAIK)
humans
apes
dolphins
dogs
pigs

how would you want your dog euthanized?


I just don't care for pork because they live in their own shit, but I still eat it from time to time. food is good, enjoy life, but you don't have to be a dick about it.
True, that's the major problem I have with the system. If you can afford it, buy free range, it's better for you as well.

Intelligence order from what I know is close to this:

Humans
Chimpanzees
dolphins
Elephants
pigs
dogs

I think we're both missing a ton though, I'm not exactly sure, but I do know that it's widely accepted that pigs are smarter than dogs. Another reason to treat them humanely. They only live in their own shit because humans treat them that way, in the wild they bathe in mud, but they don't necessarily poop in the mud first. It's in captivity you see this.

stringtapper
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by stringtapper » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:00 pm

You've both got it all wrong. The order of intelligence is:

Mice
Dolphins
Humans
Apes
Dogs
Pigs

"So long and thanks for all the fish!"
Unsound Designer

Johnisfaster
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:55 am

Machinesworking wrote:but I do think working towards saner slaughterhouse conditions, and in general treatment of the animals is important.
I'm all for less torture, I'm down with killing and eating of animals and yes I have killed a few animals in my day, but torturing them is just disgusting.

and sure a lot of people haven't done the killing themselves, but like I said there isn't anything wrong with convenience. and I don't feel that someone else killing food desensitizes you, do you think north american indian women were prone to violence because their husbands went out and hunted and killed the animals? well they must have been desensitized to the violence though right? they must have become prone to violence right?

slaughter houses aren't the cause of any problem they are a symptom of the problem. people are violent for whatever reason, you're seeing the evidence of that slaughter houses sure, but just cause those areas are violent doesn't mean those are the SOURCE of the violence it's a symptom. same thing with video games, it's not the cause it's a symptom. movies, music, art, all can be violent. they are only evidence of the fact that people have a violent nature.
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

Johnisfaster
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:03 am

double post
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

Machinesworking
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:01 pm

Johnisfaster wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:but I do think working towards saner slaughterhouse conditions, and in general treatment of the animals is important.
I'm all for less torture, I'm down with killing and eating of animals and yes I have killed a few animals in my day, but torturing them is just disgusting.

and sure a lot of people haven't done the killing themselves, but like I said there isn't anything wrong with convenience. and I don't feel that someone else killing food desensitizes you, do you think north american indian women were prone to violence because their husbands went out and hunted and killed the animals? well they must have been desensitized to the violence though right? they must have become prone to violence right?

slaughter houses aren't the cause of any problem they are a symptom of the problem. people are violent for whatever reason, you're seeing the evidence of that slaughter houses sure, but just cause those areas are violent doesn't mean those are the SOURCE of the violence it's a symptom. same thing with video games, it's not the cause it's a symptom. movies, music, art, all can be violent. they are only evidence of the fact that people have a violent nature.

The argument isn't mine as I've said, but the argument I was giving was slightly different, that industrialized slaughterhouses, and other less humane techniques of killing, plus the distance from the animal.. (the wives in a tribe would be often present or even responsible for cleaning the guts out of an animal etc.) All these things coupled with poor regulation of slaughterhouses, and common knowledge of abuse etc. all these together add up to a breeding ground for desensitizing oneself to violence.

There is a major difference between fantasy games, music and movies, and inhumane factory farming of animals. I don't see any connection at all there. I wouldn't even call violence in art in general a symptom, it's a way to create a story, and add an element of danger etc.

Anyway, I still think OP should showcase the music a bit better.

Johnisfaster
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Johnisfaster » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:06 am

Machinesworking wrote:
There is a major difference between fantasy games, music and movies, and inhumane factory farming of animals. I don't see any connection at all there.
I'm not saying they are the same at all, but people have tried to blame violence on all sorts of things ie video games/movies/music and apparently the fact that slaughter houses desensitize us to violence. I was just pointing out that blame is put in a lot of things and my point was that none of those things can be to blame, they are simply manifestations of man doing violent things. to blame them would be like saying that the action is to blame for the action, the thing is to blame for itself.
to say that anything is to blame for violent behavior assumes that something other than our true nature is to blame, to say that something is to blame for our violent behavior is a convenient way to take the blame off of ourselves.
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

ThrowAway
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by ThrowAway » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:19 am

The other night on the sundance channel they had a documentary about some chinese business owners and the last section I caught was about a woman restaurant millionaire that sent her chefs to this "live" food cooking contest where they tortured the crap out of all kinds of animals. I had to turn it off after I saw them take this fish out of a tank, scale them, slice a couple of cuts in each side and then fry them alive. If the fishes mouth wasnt moving when the judges tasted it then it was automatically disqualified. That was torture.

brightonalex
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by brightonalex » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:16 pm

I didn't reply because I thought the poster was a robot.

But I would like to ask - do jellyfish really last forever? Surely that can't be right?

lhc
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by lhc » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:10 pm

Last edited by lhc on Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

lhc
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by lhc » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:29 pm

updated

Machinesworking
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:51 am

Johnisfaster wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
There is a major difference between fantasy games, music and movies, and inhumane factory farming of animals. I don't see any connection at all there.
I'm not saying they are the same at all, but people have tried to blame violence on all sorts of things ie video games/movies/music and apparently the fact that slaughter houses desensitize us to violence. I was just pointing out that blame is put in a lot of things and my point was that none of those things can be to blame, they are simply manifestations of man doing violent things. to blame them would be like saying that the action is to blame for the action, the thing is to blame for itself.
to say that anything is to blame for violent behavior assumes that something other than our true nature is to blame, to say that something is to blame for our violent behavior is a convenient way to take the blame off of ourselves.
Man is not doing violent things when he plays games that mimic violence, or creates art that shows violence. Art or games are not violent by nature, even if violent acts are mimicked. It's a far cry from a slaughterhouse, which even in perfect conditions is violent by nature.

Tone Deft
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Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:39 am

buncha bleeding pussies up in here. :P

you can euthanize an animal comfortably, gunshot to the head, retractable bolt (as featured in No Country For Old Men), lethal injection...

slaughterhouses desensitize us to violence?? reality check, most people don't have a f-ing clue what goes on in a slaughterhouse, if they did, more laws would be enforced and more people would definitely be vagetaians.

animal husbandry is part of human life.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Machinesworking
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: truth and.. truth

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:27 am

^^^^
:lol:
Going shooting this weekend BTW. I'll leave the animal husbandry to you. ;)

pepezabala
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Location: In Berlin, finally

Re: truth and.. truth

Post by pepezabala » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:33 am

that link doesn't open here at work. Come on: Jellyfish is immortal?

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