truth and.. truth

[lhc]

http://dseir.planet.ee

[Salty P]

One man's truth....

[lhc]

can you be more specific?

[Machinesworking]

Like the music, at least the first song, definitely giving the rest a listen.

The star symbol with the paw and fist is pretty silly though, and I'm vegan.

Also, even though vegan, I'm not convinced that ending animal torture etc. is the answer to ending war, and if we can't end war, how can we as a whole care about what we do to animals? It's not vanity or egoism to think that as a whole humanity should care about it's own first, it's mere instinct. My concession to this, is that changing laws to prevent animal cruelty is the only realistic goal out of any of what I've mentioned here.

Again the music is pretty dammed cool, you should do more to showcase it on the site though. Liked the first one the best so far.

[Johnisfaster]

and if we can't end war, how can we as a whole care about what we do to animals?

interesting point. although I do have to say that it's pretty hard to hate an animal. and since animals aren't religious (that we know of) it does seem likely that people fighting people is entirely different than people hurting animals at least on a motivation level, which serves to show that maybe we as a planet could decide not to hurt animals yet still hate each other enough to fight. just not likely

[Tone Deft]

HBO is running this documentary, just saw it. it's not the most shocking thing I've seen on the topic but it left an impression.

word gets out about a hog farm that hangs 'worthless' hogs from a front loader. if nothing else catch the court scene at the end.

this film takes a harrowing look at animal cruelty in an Ohio factory hog farm, as chronicled through undercover footage taken by "Pete," the same animal-rights investigator who appeared in the first film.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/deathf ... index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUTcTCy ... annel_page <-- a short clip from the court scene I referred to.

[Johnisfaster]

there's different kinds of violence in the world. sometimes it's motivated by your beliefs and sometimes hatred/angry sometimes people just plain like to do it. I've seen plenty of video's that show hick bastards hurting animals and usually someone laughing about it, and possibly even worse is the fact that people (me included) watch these video's and feel absolutely no empathy for the creature being tortured. pretty much tells me mankind will eventually suffocate up it's own asshole. when cows learn to throw rocks we are fu*ked.

[Machinesworking]

and if we can't end war, how can we as a whole care about what we do to animals?

interesting point. although I do have to say that it's pretty hard to hate an animal. and since animals aren't religious (that we know of) it does seem likely that people fighting people is entirely different than people hurting animals at least on a motivation level, which serves to show that maybe we as a planet could decide not to hurt animals yet still hate each other enough to fight. just not likely

Just to throw this out there, I think "on a motivational level" in terms of the reason given maybe, but the underlying psychological reasons to torture an animal and a person are undoubtably similar. This is why animal torture in childhood is one of the four major signs of a sociopath and serial killer etc. The argument is that animal cruelty and harvesting for meat is desensitizing mankind to cruelty, and therefore desensitizing mankind to murdering each other. Like I said, I don't think that it's possible for mankind to care about other creatures if we don't care about each other. Kind of a Catch 22.

[Machinesworking]

HBO is running this documentary, just saw it. it's not the most shocking thing I've seen on the topic but it left an impression.

word gets out about a hog farm that hangs 'worthless' hogs from a front loader. if nothing else catch the court scene at the end.

this film takes a harrowing look at animal cruelty in an Ohio factory hog farm, as chronicled through undercover footage taken by "Pete," the same animal-rights investigator who appeared in the first film.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/deathf ... index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eUTcTCy ... annel_page <-- a short clip from the court scene I referred to.

Pigs bother me the most. Of all the farm animals we had when I was growing up, the pig was way too clever. It's crazy how it seems they get some of the worst treatment, as if people are driven to brutalize them more for being more aware....

[Johnisfaster]

The argument is that animal cruelty and harvesting for meat is desensitizing mankind to cruelty, and therefore desensitizing mankind to murdering each other.

that's much more convenient than the possibility that man just plain enjoys the power of hurting something/someone else. I mean we wouldn't have started the desensitizing process we are in if we didn't at some point make a totally 'sensitized' decision to hurt an animal. it became desensitized because we got tired of feeling bad about doing something we naturally want to do. (talking about eating animals, not torturing them)

in all honesty I'm totally NOT down with people torturing animals. I do eat meat but that's because I firmly believe it's in our nature to eat meat just as most of the kingdom of animals do. Of course I don't kill it myself but that's cause I live in a society of convenience, so just cause it's convenient does that make it wrong?

there's an old saying that a pit bull could rip a human baby to shreds and smile the whole time. now if a pit bull does that does that make it evil? no, it's just a pit bull doing what a pit bull does. the fact of the matter is morality may not even exist.(playing devils advocate to be honest) and animals are the only ones smart enough to live by their true nature without spending half their time thinking "maybe this is wrong"

when it comes down to it human beings are a confused bunch of creatures in more ways than there are stars. hey maybe we evolved past our primal instincts and now we live by "morals" whatever that is, whatever it comes from

I'm the kind of guy that could easily shoot an animal for food if I had to, yet the other day I went to the store to buy a mouse to give to my cat (since we had been out of town for 2 weeks and I thought it would really enjoy it) and decided I couldn't be that crewel to the mouse. I told myself "would a cat hesitate to buy it and eat it?" but somehow I couldn't get behind that logic.

I'm gonna become a zebra.

[Johnisfaster]

more devils advocate stuff:

should we be concerned about he mistreatment of bacteria and microorganisms? if not, why not?

[stringtapper]

should we be concerned about he mistreatment of bacteria and microorganisms? if not, why not?

Let the rabbits wear glasses!

[Machinesworking]

more devils advocate stuff:

should we be concerned about he mistreatment of bacteria and microorganisms? if not, why not?

LSD logic for sure! Just a generalized idea of where my head is at with this is all I can give back really. Interesting how huge of a subject food becomes, and how quickly that happens. Why I rarely mention it among friends IRL.

OK first of all what are your ideas on ethics and morals? Personally I believe that naturally under all the BS and hurt etc. mankind is designed to work in groups in order to achieve goals. We wouldn't have the automobile or any other technological achievement if it weren't for this. somewhere along the way we overpopulated, and along with that came all the dysfunctions of modern society. There are really quite frighteningly accurate depictions of modern cities done with overcrowding rats in city size cages; you get all the familiar societal ills, violent youth gang rats, loner rats, suicidal depressed rats, crazy rats, with a few rats clinging to traditional rat social structure etc. All this increases with the overcrowding. I think personally religion and ethics etc. are a necessary step in conditioning people to living in the kinds of interdependent societies we do. Think about it, a person with sadistic urges in a society that consists of 30 people will soon find himself isolated unless he puts his urges to good use. The possibility of that person running rampant in a modern society is tenfold, what with the mobility we have. Plus the fact that it becomes more common for people to malfunction the larger the society becomes creates a need for ethics. In the end ethics are simply a way to put to practice the main objective truths of any animal, survival and caring for the tribe as a whole to propagate your species. With that in mind, mankind is half cocked at best. We have religion and ethics which I think were first installed as ways to control primal urges gone haywire due to tribe size, but at this point are so spread out that they're used to separate us into distinctly different cultures, and we have made it too easy to gather food, but blurred the ethics of it with factory farming techniques.

A dog is a simple creature socially compared to people, and though a dog eating a baby is nasty to us, to a dog on an instinctual level, a baby human is not the same species. Some asians eat dog, and I'm sure it's the younger ones that are preferred. To me it's a combination of two things, we live in a society that is capable of thriving off of an animal free diet, and our current model of being removed from the act of killing the animal desensitizes people to killing in general, yet gives us no real experience with it. How many modern meat eaters have ever killed an animal?? It's crazy to me how few have. I have, and I didn't find it to be shameful, but farming on a small scale is far different than producing 1000 head of cattle for slaughter a year. Plus the reality is I'm a pig of an eater, if I ate meat I would be far more than the mere 20 pounds over my target weight I am right now.

I don't think people are capable of caring for animals until they care for themselves, but I do think working towards saner slaughterhouse conditions, and in general treatment of the animals is important.

[Aequitas123]

what an absurd rationalization that website makes.

[Machinesworking]

To answer the bacteria question dryly, we should always care more for our own species and ones close to ours in structure, on a purely instinctual level. Especially if they served a purpose, IE dogs were/are cheap alarm systems, cats clean the house of mice etc. It's pure nature.