All times are UTC

 
 



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:56 pm
Posts: 189
Quick Question:

I am Rendering/mixing-down parts as I build a song using export audio.

When all of the individual parts for the song have been mixed down, I will then mix them together to create a pre-master.

Should I be turning the Dithering Option to OFF (No Dither) while exporting the part files, since I will (as a final step) be Dithering all of the part files, after they have been mixed together (in the form of a song)?

Dither once seems to be the golden rule!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:47 pm 

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 191
Location: myrtle beach
Since this post got so long and out of control im going to post exactly what live says about dither and such right here.

Whenever rendering audio to a lower bit depth, it is a good idea to apply dithering in order
to minimize artifacts. Dithering (a kind of very low-level noise) is inherently a non-neutral
procedure, but it is a necessary evil when lowering the bit resolution.
Please note that Live’s internal signal processing is all 32-bit, so applying even a single gain
change makes the resulting audio 32-bit as well  even if the original audio is 16- or 24-bit.
Dither should never be applied more than once to any given audio le, so unless you are
mastering and nalizing in Live, it is best to always render at 32-bit and avoid dithering
altogether.

_________________
www.myspace.com/solacerodgers - music mastering and more.


Last edited by solacerodgers on Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
dither when you between awkward sample rates is the golden rule, such as going to 44.1k from 48k or 96k.

if you can't hear a difference, don't mess with it.

_________________
oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 593
you should really just dither once, but if you are doing things that way, it all depends on bit rate. if you reduce from 32 to 24, or to 16, you need to dither. otherwise you will hear truncation in the bass and treble.

i'd really just stay inside the project and freeze and flatten everything. that way you can stay in a 32 enviroment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 am
Posts: 5377
Tone Deft wrote:
dither when you between awkward sample rates is the golden rule, such as going to 44.1k from 48k or 96k.

if you can't hear a difference, don't mess with it.
What?? Dithering is applied when changing bit-depth, not sample-rate....you know that.

OP - you should maintain the highest bit-rate you can throughout your workflow. If you are exporting parts to be mixed later, you will benefit from exporting them as 32-bit. Only apply dither once, and at the very end of your process, when you go to 16-bit.

_________________
I/O AudioVisual
ethios4


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:08 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
Superchibisan wrote:
it all depends on bit rate. if you reduce from 32 to 24, or to 16, you need to dither. otherwise you will hear truncation in the bass and treble.

32, 24 and 16 bit do NOT refer to the bit rate. "hear truncation in the bass and treble"? that's incorrect, in effect that's a filter and dithering is not a process that resembles a filter in any way shape or form. what does hearing truncation in the treble and bass mean? truncate the top bits you get massive distortion, truncate the lower bits and you lose dynamic range and get more subtle distortion. but none of that matters.

Quote:
i'd really just stay inside the project and freeze and flatten everything. that way you can stay in a 32 enviroment.

apples and oranges. you can only dither in Live when you render the project, it has nothing to do with staying inside Live.

_________________
oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:14 pm 

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 191
Location: myrtle beach
Tone Deft wrote:
Superchibisan wrote:
it all depends on bit rate. if you reduce from 32 to 24, or to 16, you need to dither. otherwise you will hear truncation in the bass and treble.

32, 24 and 16 bit do NOT refer to the bit rate. "hear truncation in the bass and treble"? that's incorrect, in effect that's a filter and dithering is not a process that resembles a filter in any way shape or form. what does hearing truncation in the treble and bass mean? truncate the top bits you get massive distortion, truncate the lower bits and you lose dynamic range and get more subtle distortion. but none of that matters.

Quote:
i'd really just stay inside the project and freeze and flatten everything. that way you can stay in a 32 enviroment.

apples and oranges. you can only dither in Live when you render the project, it has nothing to do with staying inside Live.


I was just about to comment on the "sound" of truncation. Wordlength is what dithering affects and what you would hear would be quantization errors with added harmonics or interpolation depending on the noise shape you used.

_________________
www.myspace.com/solacerodgers - music mastering and more.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 593
wait wait wait. so 16 bit. and 24 bit. do not refer to bit rate? what do they refer to then?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:25 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
solacerodgers wrote:
I was just about to comment on the "sound" of truncation. Wordlength is what dithering affects and what you would hear would be quantization errors with added harmonics or interpolation depending on the noise shape you used.

nope. wordlength does not change.

dithering twiddles the lowest order bits to help hide artifacts from other processes, that's all it is. how it's done and which method to use is a pretty deep concept.

_________________
oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
Superchibisan wrote:
wait wait wait. so 16 bit. and 24 bit. do not refer to bit rate? what do they refer to then?

when the audio is sampled, 16, 24 and 32 bit refer to how large the binary number is that's used to represent the sample. this affects the dynamic range of the sampling process.

bitrate is sample depth times the sample rate, but most all digital audio systems are 32 bits, even if you only record with 16 or 24 bits. the data word is 64 bits (32 left, 32 right.)

_________________
oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 593
i can't believe i've been wrong all these years! my school must have lied to me. i paid good money for that! its all LIES.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
they directly affect the bit rate but there's two parts to the bit rate, so in short hand you could make that connection if you assume a sampling rate.

_________________
oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:36 pm 

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 191
Location: myrtle beach
Tone Deft wrote:
solacerodgers wrote:
I was just about to comment on the "sound" of truncation. Wordlength is what dithering affects and what you would hear would be quantization errors with added harmonics or interpolation depending on the noise shape you used.

nope. wordlength does not change.

dithering twiddles the lowest order bits to help hide artifacts from other processes, that's all it is. how it's done and which method to use is a pretty deep concept.


Wait what, wordlengths do not change? In digital audio (DSP) the wordlength is ever expanding now depending on your bit resolution and a fixed or floating point this will either be pre truncated or ( floating point ) be allowed to overflow into the wordlength. When you dither you loose wordlength and its usually the last steps that are truncated to fit into the new bits that are then requantized to fit into the smaller bits. All that said to say this all processing in the digital domain results in a change in wordlength.

_________________
www.myspace.com/solacerodgers - music mastering and more.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 593
sorry, i used the wrong word. depth, not rate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dithering!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
solacerodgers wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
solacerodgers wrote:
I was just about to comment on the "sound" of truncation. Wordlength is what dithering affects and what you would hear would be quantization errors with added harmonics or interpolation depending on the noise shape you used.

nope. wordlength does not change.

dithering twiddles the lowest order bits to help hide artifacts from other processes, that's all it is. how it's done and which method to use is a pretty deep concept.


Wait what, wordlengths do not change? In digital audio (DSP) the wordlength is ever expanding now depending on your bit resolution and a fixed or floating point this will either be pre truncated or ( floating point ) be allowed to overflow into the wordlength. When you dither you loose wordlength and its usually the last steps that are truncated to fit into the new bits that are then requantized to fit into the smaller bits. All that said to say this all processing in the digital domain results in a change in wordlength.

OK, now you're getting into floating point DSP processing. I'm just talking regular digital audio sampling, dithering, and transmission.

where you're headed you can say all kinds of things about the audio, time domain vs frequency domain, floating point, normalization, all kinds of tricks.

dithering is taking the lowest order bits and using a pseudo-random process to 'blur' the data to cover up uglies from some other process. no need to convert to floating point, I guess you could and there might be dithering processes out there that do that.

_________________
oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC

 
 

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group