torrents vs livelihood

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
forge
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torrents vs livelihood

Post by forge » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:17 am

I have always had a pretty liberal view on file sharing. I kind of accepted that it is just the way of things and at least as a musician it is possible to do it for the love of it or earn money in other ways like gigging or selling merch etc, and that with the internet whatever sales you do get you get to keep more of it unlike the unfair record deals of past etc etc blah.

But I was just in my googling travels and I discovered that my videos are all over the torrents. Sales were down last month and I figured that made sense because of the Live 8 beta coming out, but just one torrent co-incidentally has been up for 55 days, covering the same period when the slump happened and it has had something like 2200 downloads! So people are clearly still interested in it, they just don't want to pay for it.

Anyway, I'm a realist about this, and I was definitely naive in thinking that this is more of a niche type thing and that nobody would bother, but to be honest it does kinda suck.

I guess what makes it different is the whole purpose of the videos is to try and earn an income from my knowledge and experience, not just because I love to do it. I've kind of dropped that need for my music to earn a reliable income because it is just what I do, but tutorial videos are part of my business as a music trainer.

So anyway, I'm not really complaining about it, I really just see this as the way the world works now, but it has made me rethink things a bit.

The thing that I found amazing was the text some of the people posting them put - shit like "we believe in the free sharing of knowledge and information". How Noble! Doesn't matter if it's other people's knowledge and information, they are doing it for the common good!

Oh well....

And for anyone who takes my post as an advertisment to go and check out the torrents, may hell-cats gnaw on your eyes while you slowly burn in the pit of eternal damnation! :twisted:

ThrowAway
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by ThrowAway » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:07 am

can you do anything to get them taken off? I am totally naive about how they work.

hacktheplanet
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by hacktheplanet » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:15 am

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that if someone actually cares about a movie/mp3/etc, they will buy it and support the creator. Maybe the people who downloaded your stuff never actually had any real intentions to compensate you fairly. So it's not exactly lost revenue.

Combating illegal file sharing is a losing battle. As you probably know from all the RIAA stuff, it will cost more time and money to protect your copyrights than it would to let it roll off your back and keep creating. I have no business telling you how to feel about people sharing your material because I've never actually made money selling any of mine, but I'd like to think that file sharing is not necessarily bad, just forcing the industry to adopt new tactics and methods of generating revenue beyond simply sales.

Last week I read about an author who had a very interesting business model. He knew that his book would just be shared online, so he didn't release it for sale right away after it was finished. Instead, he put up a "collection plate" on his webpage. When the collection reached a certain amount, he would post a new chapter online for free for everyone. People could donate whatever amount they wanted, and if the amount wasn't reached in time, nobody was charged and the book wasn't released. So you'd donate a dollar and get a new chapter. Then you'd have to keep reading and donating. You might try that. Put a teaser video up of your new material and release it only when a certain amount has been generated.
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forge
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by forge » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:59 am

the_planet wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that if someone actually cares about a movie/mp3/etc, they will buy it and support the creator. Maybe the people who downloaded your stuff never actually had any real intentions to compensate you fairly. So it's not exactly lost revenue.

Combating illegal file sharing is a losing battle. As you probably know from all the RIAA stuff, it will cost more time and money to protect your copyrights than it would to let it roll off your back and keep creating. I have no business telling you how to feel about people sharing your material because I've never actually made money selling any of mine, but I'd like to think that file sharing is not necessarily bad, just forcing the industry to adopt new tactics and methods of generating revenue beyond simply sales.

Last week I read about an author who had a very interesting business model. He knew that his book would just be shared online, so he didn't release it for sale right away after it was finished. Instead, he put up a "collection plate" on his webpage. When the collection reached a certain amount, he would post a new chapter online for free for everyone. People could donate whatever amount they wanted, and if the amount wasn't reached in time, nobody was charged and the book wasn't released. So you'd donate a dollar and get a new chapter. Then you'd have to keep reading and donating. You might try that. Put a teaser video up of your new material and release it only when a certain amount has been generated.
yeah I actually agree - in a way that was my point I have always had the same belief as you, and still do really, but it was a new experience seeing they have been downloaded that many times for free and that bummed out feeling that I wont get any income from that

I also agree that a lot of those people might not have bought them otherwise, so yeah it gets them out there and for every torrent download there is the chance that someone hears about it who would prefer to buy it - maybe not so likely, but at least possible

but the other point I was making was the torrents appear to have gone up at around the same time as sales dropped off, and although I was expecting it to drop off a bit with the Live 8 beta (even though almost all of the videos are still relevant) the fact that 2200 people downloaded just one of the torrents means there is still interest

but yeah, whatever..just move on is the thing

I guess the main problem for me is I made them WAY too thorough - like 15 minute videos on one feature that cover everything about that feature - so it meant that whole series took A LOT of work, so it does feel a bit annoying seeing it all there being passed around

in future I'll bee keeping it much more concise and not going too in detail with things people may not need to do what they want to do

OvertoneZero
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by OvertoneZero » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:15 am

These videos are fucking sweet bro, you could totally make money off this!!

esky
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by esky » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:09 am

What a touching contribution. Someone who "had a pretty liberal view on file sharing" suddenly notices that he can't pay his bap if everybody steals his work. Honestly, you have my sympathy with that, even though i think your a little late with that learning curve. We all here suffer from torrents, how can anybody ignore that...???

pepezabala
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by pepezabala » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:19 am

esky wrote:We all here suffer from torrents, how can anybody ignore that...???
Hmm, there might also be a lot of people on this board that do the opposite.

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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by esky » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:25 am

pepezabala wrote:
esky wrote:We all here suffer from torrents, how can anybody ignore that...???
Hmm, there might also be a lot of people on this board that do the opposite.
"We all here" means all musicians and artists here, who try to generate an income with making music. Should be some in this forum. They suffer if 90% of downloads are via filesharing and other illegal sites...

juncmodule
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by juncmodule » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:57 am

I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

Your videos are worth pirating it seems. You have a large enough fan base to have graduated to this level.

However, I do not see 2200 as a large number at all. I think, at most, based on that number you could assume between 2 and 22 actually will use the videos and would have even considered buying them in the first place. If your videos are good enough, and affordable enough, even that 2-22 people will end up being loyal customers.

As far as music itself being hurt by piracy, I believe that this is a bunch of crap. You don't make money off of music, you make it off of fans. Period. Real fans spend money on shows, t-shirts, and the music. The rest are people that would have never bought your crappy music anyway.

Personally, I give away all of my music. If I did shows then I would probably sell some tracks. Since I'm not building a fan base with shows I see giving away my music as the only way to really do that.

Besides, no one would buy my crappy music anyway.

later,
-junc

forge
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by forge » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:54 am

juncmodule wrote:I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

Your videos are worth pirating it seems. You have a large enough fan base to have graduated to this level.

However, I do not see 2200 as a large number at all. I think, at most, based on that number you could assume between 2 and 22 actually will use the videos and would have even considered buying them in the first place. If your videos are good enough, and affordable enough, even that 2-22 people will end up being loyal customers.

As far as music itself being hurt by piracy, I believe that this is a bunch of crap. You don't make money off of music, you make it off of fans. Period. Real fans spend money on shows, t-shirts, and the music. The rest are people that would have never bought your crappy music anyway.

Personally, I give away all of my music. If I did shows then I would probably sell some tracks. Since I'm not building a fan base with shows I see giving away my music as the only way to really do that.

Besides, no one would buy my crappy music anyway.

later,
-junc
thanks

yeah I actually agree... but that figure of 2200 was of ONE torrent file - that was my point

but to answer Esky's point, the reason I haven't been so bothered about finding my music on pirate sites is for the same reason as juncmodule pointed out here - that I was just stoked to be worth pirating - but they were underground house releases from a few years ago, the point is videos like this are like the day job

anyway, as I said, I'm not really complaining, I just thought I'd share the experience because it was new for me

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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by the_antagonist » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:51 pm

Maybe you should go into teaching face to face and only release video's with eronious information.

forge
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by forge » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:06 pm

the_antagonist wrote:Maybe you should go into teaching face to face and only release video's with eronious information.
that's also part of what I do (not the erroneous bit! ;-) )

anyway, they tell me it's always been this way...just par for the course I guess....

I am inclined to think a lot of the people downloading wouldn't have bought them anyway

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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by the_antagonist » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:21 pm

they may asspire to buy it. like i asspire to getting out of bed early.

minimal
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by minimal » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:34 pm

it sounds like someone who got a lot from torrents is now bitching because his stuff is on torrents :twisted:

rikhyray
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Re: torrents vs livelihood

Post by rikhyray » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:48 pm

Take it as compliment those numbers and maybe you could hook up with company (or go similar way) like Lynda.com, their monthly subscriptions are really attractive, who would bother to download "free" when for little money you can choose what you need. I guess they still make money.
Majority of torrent downloads are done by addicts who do not even have time to watch, listen to what they download 24/7, they wouldnt buy anyway, so no real loss to anyone.
Look at DJ market- anyone who does it for money do not have time to search, download, then sort, label, re label etc. That companies like beatport work is less of high moral standards of the users, rather common sense and practicality, tunes cost fraction of the income and anyway it is tax write off. Any, be it 100$ or 5000$ DJ will rather get 2-3 hours more sleep than do get busy with the torrent shit.
Anyway congrats, for paid and unpaid downloads, means your work has some value, for artists it is like bad press (better then none).

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