Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
arachnaut
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by arachnaut » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:02 pm

I rarely use any type of beat, drum, or tempo-device.
Even if I loop, which is very rare, there is no quantized measure, so the clips are never synchronized to some metric.
Sometimes I use an arpeggiator and that usually results in a temporary meter, but I try to hide that.
I have nothing against meter, but personally for me music is a stream or a flow with no 'choppiness'.

oivindi
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by oivindi » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:33 pm

Thanks for all the great replies, people!

Certainly given me enough to think about ...

I am already a Logic Express user, but think that Live could give me some advantages that Logic can't. Not to mention that Apple seems to have given up on Logic (no updates for how long?), and that Max For Live will be out shortly - which should really open things up (literally).

BOB Cooper
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by BOB Cooper » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:38 pm

oblique strategies wrote:
4.33 wrote:session view is designed for loops
I disagree with this statement. Session view is excellent for non-loop based, & non rhythmic music.
that is really true.




However, I think is good for the music you talked about, in a live context.
but, for studio composition... I don't feel confortable with it.
I use it for that kind of music, but just for his useful functions (then go back to pro tools). tracks routings/chainings, midi possibilities, etc... when I need the functions Live is good for, I use it. But for the arrangment in itself, I can't. I really can't stand the interface (arrangment view I mean)

greenscreens
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by greenscreens » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:57 pm

why cant you turn looping on without warping? that bothers me so much

BOB Cooper
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by BOB Cooper » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:07 pm

well, you can "de-warp" the sample, but true that it would be good to have a preferences option about that. that bothers me a lot too.
(I mean, you have to take off all warp markers and adjust the original tempo exactly to the tempo of your set, so ti's not warped at all).

oblique strategies
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by oblique strategies » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:46 pm

The things that bother me when using Live with un-warped clips:

Can't use clip envelopes unless clip is warped.

Follow Actions Limitations
This prevents Live from being one of the most awesome random sound/music generator:

Follow Action time control –doesn’t just let a clip play to the end & then execute the follow actions: it is locked to a bars/beats/sixteenths increments. Another feature that only really works well if the clip is warped, warped & looped, or otherwise non-ambient.

Why can’t one option be: “end of clip”? Moreover, there should be a time field expressed as 00:00:00 for hours: minutes: seconds so that a time delay can be inserted before the follow action is executed.

There are some really good suggestions that address this issue here:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... ow+actions


Arrange View Recording Issue
If I have a number of un-warped clips playing in the Session view, & then hit record, the recording in the Arrange window start recording the clips at the beginning of each clip, rather than starting where each individual clips play head was actually located when I hit record. This results in the Arrangement not matching the clip order that was playing in the Session.

I can get the clips to record where the play head is actually located in the clip if I set the clips to warp. Why can’t I just record the clips playing in the Session window at the current position of the play head within the clips?

This is a major problem when you are recording your improvisational session in Arrange view to save it for additional work or refinement. It is another one of the issues caused by Live catering to loops rather than non-looped digital audio.

oblique strategies
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by oblique strategies » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:54 pm

greenscreens wrote:why cant you turn looping on without warping? that bothers me so much
I agree.

You probably already know this, but here is a workaround: warp the clip(s) using the option to warp at the global tempo: it will be the 4th option in the warp drop down contextual menu when you click on the little triangle Start Marker that warps the clip. For example: it will read "Warp 120.00 BPM From Here" if the global tempo is set to 120.00 -the number preceding the BPM will be the global tempo.

Not really a solution, but you can get clips to loop without warping them this way.

BOB Cooper
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by BOB Cooper » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:57 pm

Oblique strategies, we share problems...

oblique strategies
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by oblique strategies » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:03 pm

:cry:

oblique strategies
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by oblique strategies » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:05 pm

The real drag is that all these tools are RIGHT THERE! But only if you warp clips...

For shame Ableton, for shame.

BOB Cooper
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by BOB Cooper » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:08 pm

oblique strategies wrote:The real drag is that all these tools are RIGHT THERE! But only if you warp clips...
indeed :| every time I face these problems, I'm just asking : WHY ???

Silwolffe
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by Silwolffe » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:27 pm

I've done some experimental works in live. I don't lock recordings to musical time (i.e. quantize) and I use the arrangement view. I'll load up my instruments on midi tracks, and record arm them and just start playing away. Sometimes I'll do some sketching in session, but when I do I usually lock myself to musical time so that I can loop and layer stuff to see how it will all sound together.

The punch in/punch out/loop bracer in arrangement is good when composing on that side, at least for me.

swishniak
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by swishniak » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:52 pm

oblique strategies wrote:
greenscreens wrote:why cant you turn looping on without warping? that bothers me so much
I agree.

You probably already know this, but here is a workaround: warp the clip(s) using the option to warp at the global tempo: it will be the 4th option in the warp drop down contextual menu when you click on the little triangle Start Marker that warps the clip. For example: it will read "Warp 120.00 BPM From Here" if the global tempo is set to 120.00 -the number preceding the BPM will be the global tempo.

Not really a solution, but you can get clips to loop without warping them this way.
good tip. or i often just resample a non warped clip which automatically loops it nicely the way it is.

Robert Henke
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by Robert Henke » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:00 pm

Simpler / Sampler are great tools for creating texture loops that can be triggered in session view. Trick: use a clip containing "endless" notes.
How to: note start before clip loop start, note end after clip loop end -> result: triggering that clip will create a note that is active as long as that clip is playing.

Also the new looper is great for textures too. And creative usage of the warper in arranger / session is fun. And if you turn the quantisaton off, you can adjust the length of a clip in fractions of a beat.

As far as the future is concerned: Unwarped looping is on our wishlist too. And a follow action "on clip end"...

I use Live 50% of the time for non beat grid music.

Robert

rbro
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Re: Anyone using Live for experimental/non-rhythmic music?

Post by rbro » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:36 pm

oivindi wrote:I have been playing around with Live before, and I'm currently fooling around with the Live 8 demo.

However, I rarely ever make music consisting of beats, but make more abstract, experimental stuff.

I still can't get rid of the feeling that Live is mostly a tool for those working with rhythms/beats.

Are there anyone out there doing experimental stuff with Live that isn't locked to a time signature?
Most of my music is without beats. I did an entire album in Live that I guess you could call abstract/experimental to some degree. You can check it out in my sig.

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