Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

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inmazevo
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by inmazevo » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:00 pm

UKRuss wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
UKRuss wrote: ps. the reailty here in the UK is: Rain, with long periods of depression.
so the whole country, not just London is just like Seattle? No wonder I liked it when i visited. :twisted:
That's because the whole country is more or less the size of Seattle. :o
inmazevo, that is some scary co-worker shit.
LOL, a mate of mine got grabbed once by a co-worker in the 'evangelist head grip' when he told him he had a cold and the guy starts shouting 'demons out! demons out!' now wtf do you do about that?
I know, i know. Stab him. That's what I said, but meh, different strokes for different folks.
We just fired him.
Trouble was, we had to make sure we had a work-related reason. It's actually defensible to just be an arrogant neurotic... you can't fire for that. :lol:

Funny thing:
There were things we agree upon... and I enjoyed talking to him about politics/religion/etc... until he jumped off the ship to people who were THERE.

My moon thing is another example. My dad was on that project... we did go. Debate it all day long but we did. And, in fact, it's just a mathematical set of components to do it. Sure, we did it first, and that's why it SEEMS such a huge thing. But going to the moon is simply an exercise in physics, engineering and math, and frankly not comparatively difficult. No reason to fake something that can be done. You fake stuff that can't be done.

Same guy that swore about the 911 stuff swore that we never went to the moon, which was of course both personally offensive and defies statistical logic: a Saturn 5 rocket is a VERY large machine, witnessed by a great many people and partially designed by my father (and thousands of others). A conspiracy is fine... but a conspiracy of millions just doesn't statistically work.

Or the holocaust. My grandfather liberated camps... and had no reason to lie about it. But people will scream about how it didn't happen because they have a belief system that requires that it didn't. Again... it just doesn't work statistically to have such a massive conspiracy. Too many variables.

Big conspiracies (meaning: those that involve a great many people) don't work.
Watch out for the small ones, though (those that involve small groups of very well organized groups of people). I do think there's far more going on than meets the eye in a great many things...

There are also loads of accidental conspiracies, created not by evil-minded people, but by well-intentioned ones, who create a situation or system that takes on a life of its own. The banking and international monetary situation strikes of this to me, as to little things like GPS phones... people are taking steps for convenience or because they think it's a good choice of action, but with those two, think about it another way:
- everybody voluntarily carrying around tracking devices so they can find the nearest coffee shop out of the 4 within 2 blocks of their current location... everybody I know now has one, for convenience. Yeah... that's a good idea. No one will ever misuse that data.
- monetary restructuring being pushed that suggests that the least hackable (identity theft-wise) form of money is biometric implants

People are doing these things, right now, and that's a fraction.
Conspiracy? Maybe. Maybe not.
Possible misuse cases? Astronomical.

The big conspiracies really just blind us to everything else.
A staged terrorist event (as if that's necessary given that people actually do want to kill each other from time to time) is the least of my worries.

- zevo
infinite density, zero volume

bensuthers
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by bensuthers » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:02 pm

> .then why the hell do we need controlled explosives.

we don't.

but then there's lots of things we don't need.

Tone Deft
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:05 pm

inmazevo wrote:- everybody voluntarily carrying around tracking devices so they can find the nearest coffee shop out of the 4 within 2 blocks of their current location... everybody I know now has one, for convenience. Yeah... that's a good idea. No one will ever misuse that data.
sarcasm, right?

I read something yesterday about a guy sitting in the park wondering about security. he saw a woman take a picture with an iPhone, which embeds the GPS coordinates into the picture and throws it up on the web. he went home and looked for the picture, found it and found the person who took the picture. he went to their photos and found pictures of their home, its contents and the GPS coordinates of where she lived.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

inmazevo
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by inmazevo » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:10 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
inmazevo wrote:- everybody voluntarily carrying around tracking devices so they can find the nearest coffee shop out of the 4 within 2 blocks of their current location... everybody I know now has one, for convenience. Yeah... that's a good idea. No one will ever misuse that data.
sarcasm, right?

I read something yesterday about a guy sitting in the park wondering about security. he saw a woman take a picture with an iPhone, which embeds the GPS coordinates into the picture and throws it up on the web. he went home and looked for the picture, found it and found the person who took the picture. he went to their photos and found pictures of their home, its contents and the GPS coordinates of where she lived.
Scary story. Did that actually happen? I don't have an iPhone, but most of my coworkers do, and we actually DO use them to find restaurants and stuff. Hypocrite that I am. :roll:

I do like having GPS when traveling in a rented vehicle in a place I've never been. Very handy, at that point.
But having one in your own town seems almost apathetic (even though I've used them for that). Google + a map and memorize the location... done. But I'm as lazy as the next of us.

Do you have an iphone?
I didn't know you could inject coordinates in the pictures, but it makes sense that an app for that exists.
Another coworker has a gps, computer and web cam in his minivan... he takes road trips, snaps picks, and the picks are uploaded to his site. It's actually kind of cool when he's camping. We know where he is (to a certain degree) the entire time. His was a custom build though.

(and no... no sarcasm in my post... I actually do think tech that is positionally aware has plenty of chances to be misused... I'm not paranoid about it, but it's there, IMHO... I'm not a big fan of webcams and microphones on computers either... always felt very 1984 to me. In fact, very recently in the news was an article about webcams and mics being turned on by international hackers so the room could be surveyed remotely, without ever entering the building)

- zevo
Last edited by inmazevo on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:13 pm

no clue if it really happened, seems totally plausible to me.

I don't have an iPhone, I could use one but I'm not THAT dumb.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

inmazevo
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by inmazevo » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:18 pm

Tone Deft wrote:no clue if it really happened, seems totally plausible to me.
I don't have an iPhone, I could use one but I'm not THAT dumb.
Hehehe.
You know, I'm not particularly paranoid. I don't see threats around every corner or in every possible avenue.

But I definitely don't like how many cameras my city has, or carrying around tracking devices, or having a 1984 system monitor on every computer I buy. All these things have uses, but all are tech, and all tech can be hacked or misused.

Always loved my mom's perspective: don't do anything wrong and you don't have anything to worry about.
That's fine, mom... but it assumes that there are always GOOD guys on the other end, and that's not our way (humans) historically. We cycle.

- zevo
infinite density, zero volume

iceaxe
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by iceaxe » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:33 pm

It is entirely reasonable to ask if the collapse of the WTC Towers was a planned implosion b/c that's exactly what it looked like. However:
Please present me with one piece of observable science that backs up any of NISTS claims.
That is not how it works. Science requires parsimony: period. Any theory that the collapse of the Towers was not caused by Flights 11 and 175 must be more plausible than the effects of an impact of ~150,000 kg at ~100 m/s followed by the combustion of ~20,000 gallons of jet fuel. Theories based on planes hitting the Towers only need to be plausible. Everything else needs to be more plausible.

A planned implosion meets the energy requirements. But under ideal conditions, wiring a building the size of the Towers would take months. Wiring it w/o anyone noticing would take much longer, i.e. started before Pres. Bush took office, and probably isn't possible anyway. Pulling this feat off twice on two buildings is absurd.

But by all means, go for it. Virtually every great advancement in knowledge was initially and repeatedly dismissed as absurd. Personally, I have no trouble believing that the Bush administration committed any manner of atrocity. But convincing me that planes didn't bring the Towers down starts with a fully formed and supportable theory. Suspicion maintained by unexplainable observations is not a theory. The simplest theory is any plausible consequence of the catastrophic impacts just prior to collapsing, even if the details aren't quite right, until something better comes along.
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by LoopStationZebra » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:44 pm

UKRuss wrote: LOL, a mate of mine got grabbed once by a co-worker in the 'evangelist head grip' when he told him he had a cold and the guy starts shouting 'demons out! demons out!' now wtf do you do about that?

I know, i know. Stab him. That's what I said, but meh, different strokes for different folks.

Yell, "AMEN, BROTHER". :?:
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

mikemc
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by mikemc » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:51 am

LoopStationZebra wrote:
Green Lemon wrote:I guess with so much force acting in one direction, there was nothing to shift it to a lateral trajectory.
That's exactly right.

Even then, under what circumstances would there be any lateral trajectory? The answer is probably very few. Unless Godzilla or that cool creature from Cloverfield actually leaned against the entire structure at once.
The video simulation was sensible to me, but I agree that more of the building would slide down above the area of the initial collapse before the whole thing came over. It would fall not like a tree, but like a pile of bricks, to the side in an arc, still covering a very wide area.

In the towers, the pancaking of the floors is very understandable.

The utter disappearance of the steel core is less very understandable. What caused that to fall apart completely?

[edit] the pancaking is understandable given the failure of the outer shell. The outer shell was pretty robust, though also. Why did it fail throughout the structure? I wonder if that was caused by the fact that the floors were attached to the outer shell by a viscoelastic joint, that enabled the individual floors to more independently of the shell in order to counteract swaying caused by the wind. In the case of the impact, the sway was coming from the *inside*.

ThrowAway
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by ThrowAway » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:00 am

inmazevo wrote:I used to work with a guy that swore that there actually weren't planes involved, and that everybody in NYC was in on a massive government plot to... do... something...

He was VERY serious about it.
All TV footage was staged, he said. Everyone in New York was in on it.
He said it was missiles, rather than internal explosives, but... six of one, etc...
And he could back it all up... via the internet.

He actually nearly got into a fight with a fellow coworker who was there when it happened, blocks away, and now has some lung problems. Man, nothing is more serious than one guy who promises it was a cover-up/hoax trying to convince an eye-witness who lost friends that the eye-witness is actually a government agent, amongst the millions of others.

Let's talk about whether we actually went to the moon. Or do you guys think THAT happened too. :roll:

The real conspiracies are the ones you don't see coming, and there are a lot of them.
You'll see. 8O

- zevo
Of course we went to the moon. I went the other day actually, Ill post pics of the moons rocks I picked up tomorrow

funknotik
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by funknotik » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:13 am

Dick Cheney wrote:I really hate this subject because 1.) I hate conspiracy theorists 2.) I hate not knowing all the facts and those two don't go well together, however, the evidence is this case is extremely compelling. If you guys have not seen the documentary "Zeitgeist", which is exactly about this subject, you would be robbing yourself if you didn't watch it (go to google video) even though Alex Jones is kind of a nutjob.

Alex Jones is a indeed a "nutjob," fortunately he has nothing to do with zeitgeist. Peter Joseph created zeitgeist, your getting your nutjobs confused. Zeitgiest for all it's historical inacuracy was in my opinion 75.89999483784883 % correct.
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Green Lemon
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by Green Lemon » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:25 am

I ate a rock from the moon. Tasted like Roquefort.

@Zebra: thanks for the info, you seem well versed. I've never worked on the design of anything so big, although I have worked on the jobsite of a tower in SF.

Does everybody understand that steel weakens in a building fire ? I think this thread can be over now.
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Green Lemon
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by Green Lemon » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:27 am

Tone Deft wrote:
inmazevo wrote:- everybody voluntarily carrying around tracking devices so they can find the nearest coffee shop out of the 4 within 2 blocks of their current location... everybody I know now has one, for convenience. Yeah... that's a good idea. No one will ever misuse that data.
sarcasm, right?

I read something yesterday about a guy sitting in the park wondering about security. he saw a woman take a picture with an iPhone, which embeds the GPS coordinates into the picture and throws it up on the web. he went home and looked for the picture, found it and found the person who took the picture. he went to their photos and found pictures of their home, its contents and the GPS coordinates of where she lived.
Another good one is that its possible to turn on the mic of many portable telephones remotely, without turning on any of the lights, so your phone can broadcast audio without appearing to be on. Yikes.
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first 1k as chrysalis33rpm.

UKRuss
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by UKRuss » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:52 am

None of this concerns me.

I am wearing a tin foil hat.

b0unce
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Re: Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust

Post by b0unce » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:28 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Deceit
+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_memo
=
All this talk of exploding concrete and hand-bending your own steel cockrings is pretty much a moot point.

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