Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Yes
152
52%
No, I would never do such a thing.
124
42%
Not Telling.
7
2%
I'm still using a crack. You're all suckers.
9
3%
 
Total votes: 292

Tone Deft
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:00 pm

yeah, then they take away the Educational Discount.

crack use just went WAAAAAY up.

dumb move Ableton, shame on you.
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mdk
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by mdk » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:05 pm

Angstrom wrote:If it's my opinion versus the actual behaviour of 100,000 people, and I disagree with 100,000 people then I will lose.

In this case the answer to your question "is it not enough?" has been proven to be "no, it is not enough", even though that answer seems both unreasonable, immoral, unjustified, etc. That is the answer. It's not the answer that anyone wants to hear, but it is the actual answer. When selling to the real world it's better to take measures to make the product fit better with the proven real world market.

...more sensible stuff...
i totally agree, what i think is a better idea is to only count the time the app is actually used. (this is how the synplant demo works apparently)

So if you could have 20 days of actual usage then i think that would be enough for most people.
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Homebelly
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Homebelly » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:21 pm

mdk wrote:
Angstrom wrote:If it's my opinion versus the actual behaviour of 100,000 people, and I disagree with 100,000 people then I will lose.

In this case the answer to your question "is it not enough?" has been proven to be "no, it is not enough", even though that answer seems both unreasonable, immoral, unjustified, etc. That is the answer. It's not the answer that anyone wants to hear, but it is the actual answer. When selling to the real world it's better to take measures to make the product fit better with the proven real world market.

...more sensible stuff...
i totally agree, what i think is a better idea is to only count the time the app is actually used. (this is how the synplant demo works apparently)

So if you could have 20 days of actual usage then i think that would be enough for most people.
This is a good idea.
It used to be the way that most software demos worked.
Another is the session time out where you get a set time limit on use, then you have to reload the plug or app'
The time out gets shorter and shorter over a period of use, and that leads to the intermittent buzz or white noise.
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Angstrom
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Angstrom » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:27 pm

mdk wrote:
i totally agree, what i think is a better idea is to only count the time the app is actually used. (this is how the synplant demo works apparently)

So if you could have 20 days of actual usage then i think that would be enough for most people.
I like that idea, a demo period of actual hours used.I'm pretty sure I could get to either love or hate any application in 60 hours for example.

The MaxMSP demo is notionally operational for 720 hours (24hours * 30days) , but I only got to use it for four actual hours before it timed out on me. Four hours was not enough to decide if I wanted to buy it.

You know, the solution to this whole cracking thing could be that simple!
Demos that expire after actual hours used.

dcease
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by dcease » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:29 pm

there should be a plain old no option... when i started with computer based recording, i tried a cracked frooty loops (ughhh), a "borrowed" acid, and a sound forge crack. never really used any of them a lot, my homie said "here, let me install some stuff for you..."
i used an le copy of sonar before i decided one day to install live lite 4, just said fuck it, let me see what this does. after doing the tutorials, i was hooked, and upgraded to 5 when i had the money. i had to upgrade, i was hooked (running a crack never crossed my mind). i guess at first i didn't know any better, and i was still recording with a hard disc recorder, but it hit me that it wasn't right to use software i had not bought. once i got my full version of live, i never used my recorder again, and most of my wishes (for live) have come true since i started using it.
i have burned in a few cd's into itunes that i didn't buy, and have borrowed a few cd's from friends that i had lost or damaged, so i wouldn't have to buy them again, as well as a couple of things from limewire back in the day...
so i am not one to cast the first stone, but it is really lame when people gloat about their warez on the forum. and it's better to buy, if you plan to use the shit... but whatever :lol:



i totally agree with "actual usage" demos, i have completely forgotten about stuff i tried to demo, and ran out of time... who knows, i might have liked it and bought it! instead, i shrug my shoulders, and move on.

dinaiz
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by dinaiz » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:31 pm

I must confess that I used a cracked version of Suite 7 for a while (almost 1 year), because I used cracked versions of others DAWs as well and wanted to figure out which one was the one I needed. For me 14 days demo is definitely not enough to see what a DAW has inside, and the unlimited time version with saving disabled is just useless.

Ableton live is so diferent that it took me a while to really understand it fully and realise it was the one for me ! Then I bought Suite 8 Boxed, well you know the most expensive one. Of course, the fact of using cracked version for 1 year gave me time to save money and also to be really convinced. So what's the bottom line ? That all the people using cracked stuff are not evil :-) . I bought Suite 8 but I would have bought the 7 if the 8 wasn't already well on the road when I took my decision.

Now I'm thinking about it I absolutely have no regrets. Of course I could have used Suite 7 for free for a while (after all, most of Live 8 new features can be worked around using 3rd party plugins) but I just felt that they deserved some money for doing such a great soft !

Also it's true that having the ability to upgrade easily is great, but I lived 1 year without it and it was ok !

I don't remember which hacker's team (I think it's h2o) motto is "try before you buy". I really believe I'm not the only one around who uses it for this purpose ! I'm definitely sure that I would NEVER have bought suite 8 if I hadn't been able to use a cracked 7 for a while !

The only thing I would say is I really think live 8 is too expensive compared to other DAWs. You can easily get discounts of course (for example I used my live lite license that I had when buying my midi controler, and could get a 100 euro discount on top of that, because the customer service gave me a quote for suite 8 a few months ago, before the prices went up, and they decided to hounour they quote, which by the way is really awesome from them), but I wouldn't like to be one of those buying it "from scratch"

Congratulations to live 8 developper's. I've been using my (legal ;-) ) version for a few days, without any crash, bug , or problems ! (finger's crossed ;-) )

dinaiz
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by dinaiz » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:34 pm

Angstrom wrote:You know, the solution to this whole cracking thing could be that simple!
Demos that expire after actual hours used.
I totally agree with that ! :-)

cperezzz
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by cperezzz » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:42 pm

how do you guys get the disc to spin if it's cracked?
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aisling
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by aisling » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:02 am

I agree that the trial period is not enough time.....
I have not used a crack of any software since 2002. If I don't own it, I don't use it. It is just the way I want to live my life. I am by no means perfect......But considering I have tracks for sale, karmically I feel better about this methodology....
I took a gamble getting into live at ver 5, but I knew if sound tribe sector 9 were using it, from an article on apples site I once read, then it was the software I needed to achieve my vision. It took me until close to ver 7 to really "understand it"......
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Sphinx
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Sphinx » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:14 am

I'd never even consider using cracked software, just as I'd never consider stealing anything from anyone...then again, that's just the way I roll.

Machinesworking
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:58 am

aisling wrote:post count 665
Your next post is gods favorite number! :twisted:

Machinesworking
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:10 am

I like people's ideas on the demo. My favorite would be the traditional demo, coupled with a 14 day trial period you could unlock at any time. This way you could mess with the program for a while, see if you like it and then try to actually use it to produce music.

I used a crack at first, like a lot of cracks in 2001 or so, I found it dodgy, and not worth the effort. Anything that possibly makes a computer less stable, and hinders the development of audio software, gets manufacturers to use dongles or other nonsense isn't worth the effort IMO. I've thought about it in the past with companies that have shitty upgrade prices, or otherwise treat the user like crap, but why use their product even cracked if they behave like that?
I remember when I actually just said fuck it and bought Reason 1.0, after a crack stopped working and waiting around a day for a download. Some people thought I was wasting money, but any problems software wise I have are bugs, or solved in a few hours now. Plus I just don't like ripping people off, even if I was at the time dirt poor.
At this point I just wouldn't do it even to demo something, not worth the effort. Again the only time I think about it at all is when an upgrade is too expensive. It's the only downside to software, that older versions lose value quickly. :(

aisling
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by aisling » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:48 am

Machinesworking wrote:
aisling wrote:post count 665
Your next post is gods favorite number! :twisted:
:D In the spirit of this marvelous number.....
Image


back on topic now, thanks for indulging me.
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by timothyallan » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:16 am

I've never even used Live, I just use the saw wave sample included in the factory content to make electro house in Logic.

Da hand
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Re: Poll: Did You Use A Crack For Live Before You Bought It?

Post by Da hand » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:22 am

Angstrom wrote:
mholloway wrote: seriously, is the trial download -- full features *including suite version* for two weeks -- not enough?
one thing that product designs, and software designers in particular, have to do is design for the clients they DO have and not the ones they WANT to have.

I often have to make adjustments to my own programming work to suit the seemingly odd behaviour of the general public. Long ago I learned that when mass behaviour seems to go against logic, it is my logic which is flawed, not the mass of users. Because I am writing for users. They are the ultimate arbiter, not me. If it's my opinion versus the actual behaviour of 100,000 people, and I disagree with 100,000 people then I will lose.

In this case the answer to your question "is it not enough?" has been proven to be "no, it is not enough", even though that answer seems both unreasonable, immoral, unjustified, etc. That is the answer. It's not the answer that anyone wants to hear, but it is the actual answer. When selling to the real world it's better to take measures to make the product fit better with the proven real world market.

In the Ableton's case they created their (relatively) new 14 day full free license thingy, which I'm sure will take a chunk out of those who would have got a cracked copy to try. And it does seem to be 'try' as the poll shows most people do then buy. But, I bet that even this will not impact the 'try before you buy' contingent too much

Because as unreasonable as it may seem - the 'demo' requirements of most people are actually a lot more than software companies (or anybody) would normally think of as rational. What the market seems to indicate is that a demo period of many months of functional use is what is required. I know that seems illogical, but look at the behaviour of the respondents. I've got to say I can kind of understand this. I have an ongoing battle with MaxMSP, once every two years I am allowed to demo thier software, at which point I have 30 days to do it. Then I usually get a ton of work and the demo times out. I have installed 3 demos of Max and although I know I probably might like it, I've never actually found out due to not having enough time to do so. I have never bought it because even 30 days was not enough (when I spend 28 days working 14 hour days). So I can understand an urge to simply bypass the bullshit and really try an application on my own terms. In this case I have not though.

Also, I've got to say that making emotional "you are all criminals" statements on a mass behaviour like this is less than pointless. This is the mass behaviour of people, and the people do then go on to make the purchases (if the poll is right). It may not fit with your moral world view, but then most of our modern activities would be completely immoral when viewed by someone from the 19th Century. Morality is a fluid thing, and it is driven by the average of behaviour.

Business will adapt to the realities of this new morality and this whole discussion will seem bizarre and anachronistic.

Of course, it's still stupid to go on the official forum of a product and say "hi, I'm using a crack, can anyone help".
but there's a difference between 'stupid' and 'immoral'
This was a brilliant reply. It really drives home the point that a few people replying in this thread choose to totally ignore. This applies equally to the music industry. The way people try, use, buy software or music has evolved into what it is today. This is the reality and putting one's head in the sand is not going to change this.

As to the demo, I am not sure if a time-counting demo will work either. I think most people evaluate with cracked software because they want to use the product on actual projects before making a purchase or switch from another program.

If you are making a decision between Ableton and Cubase, for example, then you have to learn what Cubase does, what Ableton does, and learn them well enough to know which you like better. The same goes for seasoned users. Many of the sequencer features between Cubase and Ableton will be similar, so it is the last 10% maybe that will convince you to make a switch. To evaluate that last 10% you need to know the software quite well before making a good comparison - and as a professional user you will need to be damn sure of your switch - hence why again, using the software on actual projects usually makes for the best evaluation.

How all this would translate into a demo? Maybe a project based demo? You can make one full project with it? This would let people tinker as long as they want on that one project, could learn how to use the software properly, see all the ins and outs and compare their finished project to other projects they have made.

Then again, maybe no change is necessary. As the replies indicate, many people have demoed the software, by whatever means they found, and have purchased the software in the end.

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