BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
scott nathaniel
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:52 am

thesmallisbeautiful wrote:Part of the problem of taking anything PETA says as "facts" is that you're usually wrong.

If you believe that animal experimentation isn't the single most important part of the development of new medical treatments (besides maybe intelligence of the researchers) then you simply don't know what you're talking about.

.
Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely necessary to test the sting factor of eyeliner on rhesus monkeys because the result will be 1,000,000 worthless bitches going to the club sans embarrassment.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:10 am

Android Bishop wrote:Anybody in here who doesnt have a degree in biomedical research needs to shut the fuck up because YOU DONT KNOW SHIT.

Not only is animal research absolutely critical for developing medicine, vaccines, experimental surgical techniques and technologies, and all other types of therapies, but it is also THE means by which we understand biological systems in general. If you want to live in the Dark Ages go start a tribe in the woods somewhere. I choose knowledge and progress.

(and yes I work in biotechnology so bite me. genetic engineering FTW)
way to win them over chief.

so, unlimited, unrestricted, unregulated animal testing is the answer. yipee.

there are right and wrong ways to do everything. an expert could tell us where the European testing laws approach the unethical.


did you read anything about the proposal or do you get your biotech news from the retards on the Ableton forum? it's not a complete ban, as a professional you should be embarrassed that you're unfamiliar with the proposal. loss of cred.
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/chemica ... sal_en.htm
On 5 November 2008 the Commission adopted a proposal to revise Directive 86/609/EEC. Through the proposal the Commission aims to minimise the number of animals used in scientific procedures and significantly improve the treatment of the animals still needed for safety testing and biomedical research throughout the European Union. It should also enhance the quality of research conducted in the EU and ensure high standards of human and animal health and environmental protection. The proposal will be adopted through the co-decision procedure and now awaits transmission to the European Parliament and the Council for their official positions on the draft.
there's one reason they can't ban animal testing in the EU, THE MONEY!! tasty big dollar little blue pill treat it but don't cure it yummy yummy pharmaceutical money.



Bishop-
did an internship at a biotech place, wrote a C program to do virtual tests showing virus growth vs CHO growth vs bovine solutions over time. fun stuff but you guys don't know shit about math. it was funny being in my 2nd year of college and speaking to a room of biotech PhDs and they couldn't follow diff eq. anyway, fascinating field, just the idea of splicing a gene into a virus, then growing virus and host, running assays and the general hands on lab work and testing, that was a trip.

btw can you do that knife trick?

I agree on one thing, lots of people just talking out their asses. I agree with the spirit of their words but FFS, it's clear they're just pulling popular opinions out of their asses.
Last edited by Tone Deft on Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

LoopStationZebra
Posts: 10586
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:57 pm
Contact:

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by LoopStationZebra » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:20 am

For that matter, did the OP read the proposal? 8O
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Chang » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:00 am

Android Bishop wrote:Anybody in here who doesnt have a degree in biomedical research needs to shut the fuck up because YOU DONT KNOW SHIT.

Not only is animal research absolutely critical for developing medicine, vaccines, experimental surgical techniques and technologies, and all other types of therapies, but it is also THE means by which we understand biological systems in general. If you want to live in the Dark Ages go start a tribe in the woods somewhere. I choose knowledge and progress.

(and yes I work in biotechnology so bite me. genetic engineering FTW)
+1

Sorry everyone but I agree here 100%.

And I'm sure the "European Parliament" won't have hard time deciding on this as they eat duck a l'orange during the meeting.

scott nathaniel
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:14 am

Chang wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:Anybody in here who doesnt have a degree in biomedical research needs to shut the fuck up because YOU DONT KNOW SHIT.

Not only is animal research absolutely critical for developing medicine, vaccines, experimental surgical techniques and technologies, and all other types of therapies, but it is also THE means by which we understand biological systems in general. If you want to live in the Dark Ages go start a tribe in the woods somewhere. I choose knowledge and progress.

(and yes I work in biotechnology so bite me. genetic engineering FTW)
+1

Sorry everyone but I agree here 100%.

And I'm sure the "European Parliament" won't have hard time deciding on this as they eat duck a l'orange during the meeting.
Well, unless you have a degree in biomedical research, you have to STFU according to the agreement you claim to be in 100% agreement with. If so, you're in the clear :wink:

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Android Bishop » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:57 am

Tone Deft wrote: way to win them over chief.

so, unlimited, unrestricted, unregulated animal testing is the answer. yipee.

there are right and wrong ways to do everything. an expert could tell us where the European testing laws approach the unethical.


did you read anything about the proposal or do you get your biotech news from the retards on the Ableton forum? it's not a complete ban, as a professional you should be embarrassed that you're unfamiliar with the proposal. loss of cred.
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/chemica ... sal_en.htm
On 5 November 2008 the Commission adopted a proposal to revise Directive 86/609/EEC. Through the proposal the Commission aims to minimise the number of animals used in scientific procedures and significantly improve the treatment of the animals still needed for safety testing and biomedical research throughout the European Union. It should also enhance the quality of research conducted in the EU and ensure high standards of human and animal health and environmental protection. The proposal will be adopted through the co-decision procedure and now awaits transmission to the European Parliament and the Council for their official positions on the draft.
there's one reason they can't ban animal testing in the EU, THE MONEY!! tasty big dollar little blue pill treat it but don't cure it yummy yummy pharmaceutical money.



Bishop-
did an internship at a biotech place, wrote a C program to do virtual tests showing virus growth vs CHO growth vs bovine solutions over time. fun stuff but you guys don't know shit about math. it was funny being in my 2nd year of college and speaking to a room of biotech PhDs and they couldn't follow diff eq. anyway, fascinating field, just the idea of splicing a gene into a virus, then growing virus and host, running assays and the general hands on lab work and testing, that was a trip.

btw can you do that knife trick?

I agree on one thing, lots of people just talking out their asses. I agree with the spirit of their words but FFS, it's clear they're just pulling popular opinions out of their asses.

a) I do actually agree with unlimited animal testing. Everything we do is tests with organisms in one way or another, and animal biotech has a loooooong way to go to catch up with microbial and plant biotech. Trying to limit its research now only serves to tie up the process with even more government bureaucratic bullshit that gets in the way of much needed research in a very important field of study.

b)I do , however, agree wholeheartedly that environmental concerns and animal treatment is an area that could be improved upon. Environmental concerns are paramount, however. I'm much more concerned about letting rouge transgenic organisms loose in the world without an understanding of how they will affect the environment than I am about how well lab rats are treated in the lab.

c) Im too busy here in the US to be intimately following EU politics, even if it is in my field. I'd be surprised if this actually passes with any significant limitations on animal research, because the EU is heavily reliant on biotech and pharmaceutical research and I doubt they would try to reign in too heavily on an industry they lead the world in. The part of that legislation that makes me really uncomfortable is the attempt to "minimize the number of animals used in scientific procedures." How do they plan on doing that, exactly? Its absolutely necessary in almost all forms of biomedical research. If you aren't testing genes and drugs and stuff on actual organisms you are not doing science, you are guessing.
Bishop-
did an internship at a biotech place, wrote a C program to do virtual tests showing virus growth vs CHO growth vs bovine solutions over time. fun stuff but you guys don't know shit about math. it was funny being in my 2nd year of college and speaking to a room of biotech PhDs and they couldn't follow diff eq. anyway, fascinating field, just the idea of splicing a gene into a virus, then growing virus and host, running assays and the general hands on lab work and testing, that was a trip.

btw can you do that knife trick?
We aren't expected to know much beyond calculus for some reason. We use statistics faaaaar more often, but even then most of the math we end up doing is just counting things (computers do the hard stuff for us). The great thing about biotech is that all the cell chemistry does most of the work for us. We dont even have to know what a DNA sequence is to isolate it and know that its the one we want. From there we PCR the fucker and make a gajillion copies, all just by letting enzymes and nucleotides do their thing. There's lots of math involved in bioinformatics however, and most biotech people working in that field have to know a shitload of math and also have to learn to program (python is an absolute minimum).

I think of it like hacking life. We are hacking life. We are reprogramming life. The things we are doing these days is really, really fascinating. We've even moved past the virus vector stage and are using new vectors that can hold huge amounts of DNA. They did that in an experiment whose goal was to replace a cow's immune system genes with human genes, which is going to be huge for future antibody therapies on the horizon (you'd be surprised how useful antibodies are). So they basically created a pseudo chromosome with human immune system DNA (over 1.5 million base pairs long), RNAi vectors for knocking out the cow immune system genes, and fused it with cow embryonic stem cells, which were then used to fuse with cow eggs and presto bingo eventually you end up with a cow that has become a gargantuan factory for producing human-only antibodies for anything you throw at it.

d) of course I can do the knife trick
Last edited by Android Bishop on Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Chang
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Chang » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:00 am

scott nathaniel wrote:
Chang wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:Anybody in here who doesnt have a degree in biomedical research needs to shut the fuck up because YOU DONT KNOW SHIT.

Not only is animal research absolutely critical for developing medicine, vaccines, experimental surgical techniques and technologies, and all other types of therapies, but it is also THE means by which we understand biological systems in general. If you want to live in the Dark Ages go start a tribe in the woods somewhere. I choose knowledge and progress.

(and yes I work in biotechnology so bite me. genetic engineering FTW)
+1

Sorry everyone but I agree here 100%.

And I'm sure the "European Parliament" won't have hard time deciding on this as they eat duck a l'orange during the meeting.
Well, unless you have a degree in biomedical research, you have to STFU according to the agreement you claim to be in 100% agreement with. If so, you're in the clear :wink:



Scott, do you have this degree either? If not, then STFU yourself. I was only giving my opinion, not stating a scientific fact. :wink:

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:25 am

Bishop-
"unlimited research?" I hear you when you first wrote against a ban, I'm talking about the opposite approach to the argument, shouldn't there be SOME limits? there are things that are currently illegal, and that's good, right? there should be regulations on what can be done and when. I mean, if I'm making childrens' vitamins I shouldn't be allowed to test the effect of microwave ovens on cats, right?

I believe that your stance goes along with the "people should see how that meat ends up on their table." coupled with industry knowledge and trends you'd like to see, which we don't see.

since you've hopefully now read the proposal, what do you make of it?


anyway...
interesting stories! the whole architecture of the tools blows my mind, as does the field in general. popular culture can't digest using cows to create human serums, they start screaming bloody murder, it's kinda funny. there are some big bleeding hearts around here, have fun.
"a cow that has become a gargantuan factory for producing human-only antibodies for anything you throw at it."
whoa...

oh, since I can ask someone in the field, how have your peers and your industry in the US reacted to Obama's lifting of stem cell research? I followed it a bit but you'd be an interesting person to ask.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

scott nathaniel
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:33 am

Chang wrote:
Chang wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:Anybody in here who doesnt have a degree in biomedical research needs to shut the fuck up because YOU DONT KNOW SHIT.

Not only is animal research absolutely critical for developing medicine, vaccines, experimental surgical techniques and technologies, and all other types of therapies, but it is also THE means by which we understand biological systems in general. If you want to live in the Dark Ages go start a tribe in the woods somewhere. I choose knowledge and progress.

(and yes I work in biotechnology so bite me. genetic engineering FTW)
+1

Sorry everyone but I agree here 100%.

And I'm sure the "European Parliament" won't have hard time deciding on this as they eat duck a l'orange during the meeting.





Scott, do you have this degree either? If not, then STFU yourself. I was only giving my opinion, not stating a scientific fact. :wink:
No, but I didn't agree with the poster's conditions, so 'm in the clear. You, on the other agreed that anyone who doesn't hold a degree should STFU. But you probably meant that you just agree with his position on animal testing and not with his opininon on who should be allowed to express their point of view, and I can't believe I just spent minutes writing this when it's going to go swoosh into nowhere :P Forget I wrote anything

scott nathaniel
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:52 pm

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:49 am

Android Bishop wrote:











a) I do actually agree with unlimited animal testing. Everything we do is tests with organisms in one way or another, and animal biotech has a loooooong way to go to catch up with microbial and plant biotech. Trying to limit its research now only serves to tie up the process with even more government bureaucratic bullshit that gets in the way of much needed research in a very important field of study.

b)I do , however, agree wholeheartedly that environmental concerns and animal treatment is an area that could be improved upon. Environmental concerns are paramount, however. I'm much more concerned about letting rouge transgenic organisms loose in the world without an understanding of how they will affect the environment than I am about how well lab rats are treated in the lab.

c) Im too busy here in the US to be intimately following EU politics, even if it is in my field. I'd be surprised if this actually passes with any significant limitations on animal research, because the EU is heavily reliant on biotech and pharmaceutical research and I doubt they would try to reign in too heavily on an industry they lead the world in. The part of that legislation that makes me really uncomfortable is the attempt to "minimize the number of animals used in scientific procedures." How do they plan on doing that, exactly? Its absolutely necessary in almost all forms of biomedical research. If you aren't testing genes and drugs and stuff on actual organisms you are not doing science, you are guessing.




We aren't expected to know much beyond calculus for some reason. We use statistics faaaaar more often, but even then most of the math we end up doing is just counting things (computers do the hard stuff for us). The great thing about biotech is that all the cell chemistry does most of the work for us. We dont even have to know what a DNA sequence is to isolate it and know that its the one we want. From there we PCR the fucker and make a gajillion copies, all just by letting enzymes and nucleotides do their thing. There's lots of math involved in bioinformatics however, and most biotech people working in that field have to know a shitload of math and also have to learn to program (python is an absolute minimum).

I think of it like hacking life. We are hacking life. We are reprogramming life. The things we are doing these days is really, really fascinating. We've even moved past the virus vector stage and are using new vectors that can hold huge amounts of DNA. They did that in an experiment whose goal was to replace a cow's immune system genes with human genes, which is going to be huge for future antibody therapies on the horizon (you'd be surprised how useful antibodies are). So they basically created a pseudo chromosome with human immune system DNA (over 1.5 million base pairs long), RNAi vectors for knocking out the cow immune system genes, and fused it with cow embryonic stem cells, which were then used to fuse with cow eggs and presto bingo eventually you end up with a cow that has become a gargantuan factory for producing human-only antibodies for anything you throw at it.
I have a question for you, and I'm not trying to be an ass. But let's say the that antibodies are produced at a rate that can eliminate many viruses, illness, etc. and therefore extend the life span of multitudes. What then? Life would become threatened through it's own extension. The only hope would be that viruses are able to always mutate at a rate greater than man's ability to combat/control them. If man conquers disease, we're all dead, so me thinks, anyway.

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Android Bishop » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:08 am

Tone Deft wrote:Bishop-
"unlimited research?" I hear you when you first wrote against a ban, I'm talking about the opposite approach to the argument, shouldn't there be SOME limits? there are things that are currently illegal, and that's good, right? there should be regulations on what can be done and when. I mean, if I'm making childrens' vitamins I shouldn't be allowed to test the effect of microwave ovens on cats, right?

I believe that your stance goes along with the "people should see how that meat ends up on their table." coupled with industry knowledge and trends you'd like to see, which we don't see.

since you've hopefully now read the proposal, what do you make of it?


anyway...
interesting stories! the whole architecture of the tools blows my mind, as does the field in general. popular culture can't digest using cows to create human serums, they start screaming bloody murder, it's kinda funny. there are some big bleeding hearts around here, have fun.
"a cow that has become a gargantuan factory for producing human-only antibodies for anything you throw at it."
whoa...

oh, since I can ask someone in the field, how have your peers and your industry in the US reacted to Obama's lifting of stem cell research? I followed it a bit but you'd be an interesting person to ask.
a) probably misinterpreting what I mean by "unlimited". If there are uncontainable environmental concerns then it should absolutely be limited. I'm arguing that placing arbitrary limits on when we can use animals for research based upon animal rights or some such crap is that, just crap. However, even if you ignore the moral aspect of the argument, its just better science to give the animals good facilities and treatment. If you dont, you're potentially screwing up the research by allowing outside factors to affect the animal's health. Nobody sticks cats in microwaves to test the microwave, scientists are pretty professional people and dont do experiments that are unnecessary. making them jump through even more hoops than they already have to is just gonna hold up the game and make research unnecessarily more difficult than it already is.

b) Like I said, from that paragraph my only concern is the aim to "limit use of animals in research in the future". How exactly do they plan on doing that? Pretty much all research with animal systems is going to need animals to test it on, otherwise you're just playing guessing games. It has the potential to unnecessarily restrict research into a field that needs it badly, as animal biotech is only just beginning to come on the scene whereas microbial and plant biotech are much further developed. I doubt they would actually pass anything that would place anything more than token restrictions on animal research, however. EU is a world leader in biomedical research and its economy is completely dependent on it, they're not going to hold back because of uneducated concerns and PETA types. What is important, again, is environmental restrictions. There must be safeguards to prevent new transgenic organisms from being introduced into the wild, and good testing measures to ensure that the ones intended to be introduced into the wild won't negatively impact its environment.

c) yeah its pretty nice that we can develop stem cell therapies for humans now, but I think there's a lot of media hype around it too. Human stem cell research is an extremely promising avenue for new cures and therapies, but its a niche avenue of research. The tools and methods being developed are whats important, for those has wider applicability. For instance, most people dont realize this but ES cells are primarily used as an important tool in animal biotechnology. Creating transgenic animals is very tough, but using ES cells is much easier. You can have an culture of ES cells and do all kinds of genetic experiments on them, and then just fuse them with an egg and boom...transgenic animal. The most important thing to develop in this field is totipotent (able to become 100% of every type cell in an organism) stem cells for a bunch of animals, not just humans. Most stem cell lines we have arent totipotent so its really hard to do biotech research with a lot of animals.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of biotech research isn't tailored for specific "products" if you will. Basic research into the function of genes and proteins and whatnot requires genetic engineering techniques. we find out what a gene does in a cell or an organism by altering it. knocking it out, replacing it with some other organism's version, mutating it, whatever. Then we can observe what happens and determine what that gene does.

In reality though, the biggest new avenues for biotech research are plant/animal pharming and marine biotechnology. Human stem cell research will be good but its overall use is limited and it doesnt teach us much of anything new. Finding out better ways to re-engineer animal genes on a wide scale, however, is far more exciting. Plant biotech is very promising too, for a very wide range of applications. We eliminated toxins from cottonseed to make it edible for its high protein composition (help feed starving countries that grow more cotton than food), but did it in a way so that the toxins were still mae int he rest of the plant to keep bugs from eating it. We've turn tobacco plants into factories that ooze out antibodies custom made from individual lymphoma patients to target each one's specific cancer cells. Made a tomato chock full of an anti-cancer compound that turned the tomato purple, and when fed to mice engineering to be susceptible to cancer they live 40% longer than their counterparts who were eating normal mice food.

Marine biotechnology is REALLY exciting and its just in its infancy. Its the one area we dont know JACK about and most of our tried and true methods simply do not work. We're also really primitive in our use of aquaculture, something we mastered on land thousands of years ago but are only now beginning to understand and utilize in water. Plus we're finding all kinds of really unique compounds and proteins and stuff in marine organisms that were unheard of until now, with future uses in medicines and new antibiotic treatments and stuff. We're developing ways to isolate these compounds/proteins/genes from cultures of dozens of organisms, without ever knowing what organism its actually coming from. This is where bioinformatics comes into play. We dont know which organism is making this particular thing we want, and we cant culture them individually because they are all symbiotic organisms, so instead we just take out ALL the DNA from every single organism in the pool and sequence the whole damn lot. From there we can find and isolate the gene we want without ever actually knowing where it came from. That's just one side to it, there are gonna be HUGE things coming out of marine biotech in the future.
Last edited by Android Bishop on Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Android Bishop » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:13 am

scott nathaniel wrote: I have a question for you, and I'm not trying to be an ass. But let's say the that antibodies are produced at a rate that can eliminate many viruses, illness, etc. and therefore extend the life span of multitudes. What then? Life would become threatened through it's own extension. The only hope would be that viruses are able to always mutate at a rate greater than man's ability to combat/control them. If man conquers disease, we're all dead, so me thinks, anyway.

I do agree with you and I brought this up at an anti-ageing conference held at UCLA several months ago. We are going to find out the mechanisms behind aging and likely have treatments or cures for them not to long from now, so what the hell do we do with all the extra people? There's too many goddamn people as it is. Couple the issues of resources and pollution with the social and cultural aspects as well (think about a civilization where the old fucks continue to consolidate wealth and power and never fucking die to let new people with new ideas take over), and you've got big problems that need to be discussed NOW. Ultimately I think it will come down to requiring more control over reproductive rates and developing technologies and products that are 100% sustainable (whether it be organic or in closed factory cycles) to prevent the accumulation of waste and the elimination of nonrenewable resources. I dont have any idea how we could solve the issue of too many old fucks holding up progress in society, however. Honestly I think all these things are already issues NOW.

P.S. in regards to the cow experiment, you have to keep in mind that we dont just use antibodies for diseases either. Antibodies are routinely used as probes in research. You can create an antibody for damn near any protein or molecule or whatever, tag it with markers like phosphorus or fluorescent molecules or radioactive isotopes and from there you use the antibodies to seek out and find the thing you're looking for and then visualize its action in the cell or find it in the body or whatever. Very handy tool, used all the time.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:17 am

tip - when you edit long posts, it's handy to add an 'edit' note at the bottom to let us know what changed. interweb is amazing for misunderstandings.
Android Bishop wrote:a) probably misinterpreting what I mean by "unlimited". If there are uncontainable environmental concerns then it should absolutely be limited.
I got that.

I'm arguing that placing arbitrary limits on when we can use animals for research based upon animal rights or some such crap is that, just crap.
which is probably where the thread should head. PETA is just one voice, IMO both their extreme and your extreme should exist so that all aspects of the issue can be examined. that's good science.

However, even if you ignore the moral aspect of the argument, its just better science to give the animals good facilities and treatment. If you dont, you're potentially screwing up the research by allowing outside factors to affect the animal's health.
true, but the d0uchebags in management sign the checks, business prevails over science, surely you've seen that. if finance doesn't approve the funding for good facilities, who will?
Nobody sticks cats in microwaves to test the microwave, scientists are pretty professional people and dont do experiments that are unnecessary. making them jump through even more hoops than they already have to is just gonna hold up the game and make research unnecessarily more difficult than it already is.
can I get an amen to a Hitler reference?

your reliance on human compassion far outweighs my own. wow.
b) Like I said, from that paragraph my only concern is the aim to "limit use of animals in research in the future". How exactly do they plan on doing that? Pretty much all research with animal systems is going to need animals to test it on, otherwise you're just playing guessing games. It has the potential to unnecessarily restrict research into a field that needs it badly, as animal biotech is only just beginning to come on the scene whereas microbial and plant biotech are much further developed. I doubt they would actually pass anything that would place anything more than token restrictions on animal research, however. EU is a world leader in biomedical research and its economy is completely dependent on it, they're not going to hold back because of uneducated concerns and PETA types. What is important, again, is environmental restrictions. There must be safeguards to prevent new transgenic organisms from being introduced into the wild, and good testing measures to ensure that the ones intended to be introduced into the wild won't negatively impact its environment.
the two bold parts are your two points. got it.

the third point is how they do they apply ANY restrictions? dunno, what is the proposition doing? I addressed this earlier in this post.
c) yeah its pretty nice that we can develop stem cell therapies for humans now, but I think there's a lot of media hype around it too. Human stem cell research is an extremely promising avenue for new cures and therapies, but its a niche avenue of research. The tools and methods being developed are whats important, for those has wider applicability. For instance, most people dont realize this but ES cells are primarily used as an important tool in animal biotechnology. Creating transgenic animals is very tough, but using ES cells is much easier. You can have an culture of ES cells and do all kinds of genetic experiments on them, and then just fuse them with an egg and boom...transgenic animal. The most important thing to develop in this field is totipotent (able to become 100% of every type cell in an organism) stem cells for a bunch of animals, not just humans. Most stem cell lines we have arent totipotent so its really hard to do biotech research with a lot of animals.
totipent, nice word. this is the kind of geekshit I heard from the PhD peeps I worked with, hence my math comment, it was funny. I'm not being cheeky, it brings back memories. ES cell? you gotta dumb this way down if we're gonna follow it.
In reality though, the biggest new avenues for biotech research are plant/animal pharming and marine biotechnology. Human stem cell research will be good but its overall use is limited and it doesnt teach us much of anything new. Finding out better ways to re-engineer animal genes on a wide scale, however, is far more exciting. Plant biotech is very promising too, for a very wide range of applications. We eliminated toxins from cottonseed to make it edible for its high protein composition (help feed starving countries that grow more cotton than food), but did it in a way so that the toxins were still mae int he rest of the plant to keep bugs from eating it. We've turn tobacco plants into factories that ooze out antibodies custom made from individual lymphoma patients to target each one's specific cancer cells. Made a tomato chock full of an anti-cancer compound that turned the tomato purple, and when fed to mice engineering to be susceptible to cancer they live 40% longer than their counterparts who were eating normal mice food.

Marine biotechnology is REALLY exciting and its just in its infancy. Its the one area we dont know JACK about and most of our tried and true methods simply do not work. We're also really primitive in our use of aquaculture, something we mastered on land thousands of years ago but are only now beginning to understand and utilize in water. Plus we're finding all kinds of really unique compounds and proteins and stuff in marine organisms that were unheard of until now, with future uses in medicines and new antibiotic treatments and stuff. We're developing ways to isolate these compounds/proteins/genes from cultures of dozens of organisms, without ever knowing what organism its actually coming from. This is where bioinformatics comes into play. We dont know which organism is making this particular thing we want, and we cant culture them individually because they are all symbiotic organisms, so instead we just take out ALL the DNA from every single organism in the pool and sequence the whole damn lot. From there we can find and isolate the gene we want without ever actually knowing where it came from. That's just one side to it, there are gonna be HUGE things coming out of marine biotech in the future.
bioinformatics... that's cool. brute force harvesting, throw a computer at it.

so what's with all this WE shit? genetic engineering started in the early 80s. you did all that? I'm an EE, can I claim that WE'RE keeping your lights on?

and the geeks shall inherit the earth.

edit - so your stance is that animals have no rights.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Android Bishop
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:03 am

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Android Bishop » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:45 am

Sorry for the long posts, I'm really into this stuff and I think the public is grossly unaware of the mind-blowing shit we are doing with biotechnology so I get a little off the handle when talking about it.

And by "we" I meant humans in general.

"ES" cell is an embryonic stem cell.

And I dont believe anything has rights, human or animal. Its a construct people invented to protect themselves from other people. The only rights animals, or even people, have are the rights others bestow on them or the ones they fight for. The only implicit rights that exist are the laws of chemistry and physics, and whatever follows from there. I treat all animals very well, because I love and care for them, but that doesn't mean they implicitly have that right. I choose to give it to them. I agree that standards should exist to better animal treatment (more needed in agriculture than research I should add), but in the end, to what extent and how do you plan on enforcing it? When it comes down to it, we're still gonna attach electrodes in their brains to find out how the brain works. We're gonna inject them with protein fragments to harvest antibodies from their spleens (spleen, right? I forget). We should have standards but it shouldn't interfere with good research. And most labs, at least for university research, have standards even if it isn't mandated. Animal testing sucks, you think I enjoy killing animals for research? I love animals! Its fucked up but this is life. You dont see them giving each other rights in the wild. Likewise we're going to do what we have to do.

Tone Deft
Posts: 23565
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Location: SF, CA

Re: BAN ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS IN EU - VOTE NOW !

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:52 am

Android Bishop wrote: You dont see them giving each other rights in the wild.
You know, Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Post Reply