Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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bog
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:49 am

Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by bog » Sat May 02, 2009 11:27 pm

I tried getting some feedback on this before I got my hands on it but got no answer. [Update: It turns out you CAN use Automap MIDI to use the Nocturn as a regular midi controller and do 3rd party midi learn. Which means that if you care about recording automation, you won't get to have the benefit of using an Automap-wrapped plugin.] It's still Ableton's fault for this major flaw in Live's inability to do this out of the box.

I'm officially giving up on attempts at workaround for recording automation in Live's session view and will continue to save up for Maschine.
Last edited by bog on Mon May 04, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

fishmonkey
Posts: 4241
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: Nocturn useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by fishmonkey » Sun May 03, 2009 1:15 am

unless i'm totally misunderstanding you, yes you can use the Nocturn like a normal MIDI controller...

in the Automap Server settings, choose "Automap MIDI" as the MIDI input and output ports, and then turn on one or more MIDI channels too...

the Automap software will automatically create a new map for each MIDI channel that you activate in the settings...

then you need to activate the Automap MIDI ports in the Live MIDI prefs...

bog
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:49 am

Re: Nocturn useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by bog » Sun May 03, 2009 2:45 am

fishmonkey wrote:unless i'm totally misunderstanding you, yes you can use the Nocturn like a normal MIDI controller...

in the Automap Server settings, choose "Automap MIDI" as the MIDI input and output ports, and then turn on one or more MIDI channels too...

the Automap software will automatically create a new map for each MIDI channel that you activate in the settings...

then you need to activate the Automap MIDI ports in the Live MIDI prefs...
Finally someone answers. You're right, the Automap MIDI client does allow it to work as a generic midi controller. While that's a relief, it still sucks because it pretty much makes the Plugin automap, the main feature of these Novation controllers, useless when it comes to recording automation in Live. To be fair, it's still Live's fault.

bog
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:49 am

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by bog » Sun May 03, 2009 3:29 am

Also, using the Automap MIDI client instead of Plugin Automap, seems like you're limited to only 16 possible templates, although you do get pages per template. And I guess you then also miss out on the ability for the controller to automatically switch to the corresponding template whenever you select a plugin. Also, you would be limited to the user group and not fx, inst, or mixer. And I'm assuming you wont' get to use "Set As Default Control Map for this Client" option when using an Automap MIDI template.

fishmonkey
Posts: 4241
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by fishmonkey » Sun May 03, 2009 5:21 am

bog wrote:Also, using the Automap MIDI client instead of Plugin Automap, seems like you're limited to only 16 possible templates, although you do get pages per template. And I guess you then also miss out on the ability for the controller to automatically switch to the corresponding template whenever you select a plugin. Also, you would be limited to the user group and not fx, inst, or mixer. And I'm assuming you wont' get to use "Set As Default Control Map for this Client" option when using an Automap MIDI template.
you can assign templates to any of the user/fx/inst/mixer groups... if you click on the group name in the top left corner of a map, you can choose which group you want the map to appear in...

as for the other things, i haven't tried those, but i'd be interested to know if any of those features work...

Tibo2004
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:33 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Tibo2004 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:13 pm

The problem is that it seems that Ableton does not send midi data to the Automap server.

As an exemple: In Automap, I open a channel so I get a template sending CCs and other MIDI data. I have a fader that sends cc23. In Live, I can turn the Midi learn switch (when everything becomes blue), select a fader, move the actual fader on the remote SL and it's connected. So when I move the actual fader it moves the fader in Live. Great. But if in Live I move the fader, the SL doesnt see the change. That's particularly annoying with on/off buttons.

is it my settings that are not correct or is it Ableton?

The automap feature is great but
1/ Novation should come up with a much clearer user guide. It took me some time to understand the Automap Midi, regular templates, VST templates, routing... It was working but I could not really understand what was going on...
2/ there should be a way to have some Ableton Instruments "wrapped" or configured in Automap as we can with VSTs. It's weird that it ends up being easier to control VSTs (easily accessible though the groups) than regular ableton live and FX (usually I just click on them with my mouse)...
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Sarrova-Q
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: Nocturn useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Sarrova-Q » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:35 am

bog wrote:it pretty much makes the Plugin automap, the main feature of these Novation controllers, useless when it comes to recording automation in Live. To be fair, it's still Live's fault.
Ehm, unless I'm missing something

I use automap all the time and I can record my automation right away without a hassle, that's just what makes it great!

(novation SL49-MK2)

Tibo2004
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:33 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Tibo2004 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:00 pm

:arrow: @ Sarrova-Q

When you say you can record automation, are you using "regular MIDI templates" (template 1-36), automap template for VST ? (template 38), Automap Midi (template 38) or the ableton template (template 40)?

(template numbers are given based on the remote SL)

I usually ddont have issues sending midi to ableton and record it. It's more to have ableton send back midi info to the Novation to reflect changes made directly in Ableton.

thks
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Sarrova-Q
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Sarrova-Q » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:54 pm

Hi I use the Ableton template and just press my automap button on the controller when I need to select and edit plugins.

I recently made a little demo video for TAL plug-ins (some project for a guy) where I recorded and automated lots of parameters live.
You can watch it here: http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3214/taldemo.mp4

As you can see, Live is also sending back the information to the SL so if I jump to another song position all my parameters change to reflect the current state.

Is your Novation setup OK?
http://www.novationmusic.com/answerbase ... utomap.png

Tibo2004
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:33 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Tibo2004 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:48 pm

@Sarrova-Q

Hi,

Nice video and nice setup.

I have no pb on the VST front as you show in your video. It's when I use the Automap template on the USER group (or any . that's where it seems that Ableton is not sending any info back to the novation. It's a minor pb and I think my setup is OK.

I can assign a control to on/off the metronome on my template. pressing the button controls the metronome without any issues. But if I click on the metronome in Ableton to change the status of the metronome, Ableton does not send any midi back.

Again, not a big deal, but still wonder if it works for you.

thanks,

T
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Sarrova-Q
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Sarrova-Q » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:00 pm

Hi sorry I misunderstood.

You're totally right, in user mode, Live isn't sending the info back.
I can map the metronome with no problems and when I press the mapped button on my novation, the LED goes on.
But when I turn it on in live, I get no feedback at all, the led stays off :(

Tibo2004
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:33 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Automap useless for 3rd party MIDI learn

Post by Tibo2004 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:13 pm

OK, I am not crazy :D

I actually lost quite some time understanding Automap because it did not make sense to me that controlling VSTs could be "better" than controlling Live in general. But I guess that's just how it is.

"Better" mainly means:
- easier to navigate (the VST page allows for quick switiching between VST intruments/effects).
- better communication (you change something on the VST, automap receives the info)

Automap is amazing to control VSTs, hard to make it better. Automap is just OK for controlling ableton as a whole (and really not clear at first... opening channels to get templates is not very straightforward... :? ).

I guess we need to see automap template (VST like) for instruments in live.

thanks for your comments.
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