OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

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Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Fri May 08, 2009 8:51 pm

starving student wrote:you see I think here is were we see things very differently, I don't believe what is happening today is cultural residue, you think that all of the barriers are removed but that is not the case, if it was so it wouldn't be such a big deal that obama is president, there would be more than 1 black senator in the country, and more than 1 black judge on the supreme court, it wouldn't be such a big deal that we might get a female hispanic on the supreme court, things are only fine and dandy in the bizzarro earth dimension
but not in this one.
for instance you think what is happening to your mom is cultural residue?.........i think not.
these issues are serious they are systemic and they effect everyone.
Yes I do think they are cultural residues. what else would they be? They certainly aren't legal ones.

What I find irritating is that people DO make it a big deal that we have a BLACK president. I could give a fuck less. What I care about is whether or not we have a GOOD president. Same with the supreme court pick. I hope against hope that he isn't making some kind of pick based on their race and gender in order to "balance out the court." I hope his pick is based on how awesome of a judge they are going to be, and to hell whether they are a latina or an old white man or a fucking hindu leper. We have a black supreme court justice and he is absolute shit, he's one of the worst people on there. I'd rather he be replaced with a rich old white man who judges intelligently and fairly than keep Thomas on for racial equality. It is these social, cultural ideas that serve to continue to keep race divisions intact. By making a big deal out of the fact that the president is black, you are adding fuel to the fire that there is something special about being black.

starving student
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 8:52 pm

DrXparaMental wrote:
starving student wrote: you're lying. what i'm saying is clear, if you can't match my blacks in from poor neighborhoods talk with your own by yourself or match my talk about legislation up with your own by yourself then your priorities are clear. peace out
Do you see that thing above what I am writing here. That's called a quote. Could you please learn how to use that function and attempt something slightly more in context please.

My lie for instance. Could you define it with a quote and state exactly why it's a lie. That would be a nice start. Try and remain unemotional if at all possible.

Please read back to yourself what I have emboldened above and ask yourself, is this information intelligible? Because it's not my man. Not at all. Make statements and not self interpreted generalizations somewhere between here and Sun Ra.

Try it. Make a concise sentence by starting with a capitol and ending with a period. Force your expressed thoughts to start and end completely and exactingly. Include something other than a general abstract summation of your personal feelings. Respond to quotes, not thin air.

peace in, (hopefully your heart)

:lol: man............it's nothing personal but you're seeking just a wee bit too much control over me.
how to start, how to end, what to say, I will say this that was the most amusing thing I've read on the forums since some other thread when you were telling someone what and how many smileys they need to use, you're cool but you're definitely on one.

starving student
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 8:59 pm

Android Bishop wrote:
starving student wrote:you see I think here is were we see things very differently, I don't believe what is happening today is cultural residue, you think that all of the barriers are removed but that is not the case, if it was so it wouldn't be such a big deal that obama is president, there would be more than 1 black senator in the country, and more than 1 black judge on the supreme court, it wouldn't be such a big deal that we might get a female hispanic on the supreme court, things are only fine and dandy in the bizzarro earth dimension
but not in this one.
for instance you think what is happening to your mom is cultural residue?.........i think not.
these issues are serious they are systemic and they effect everyone.
Yes I do think they are cultural residues. what else would they be? They certainly aren't legal ones.

What I find irritating is that people DO make it a big deal that we have a BLACK president. I could give a fuck less. What I care about is whether or not we have a GOOD president. Same with the supreme court pick. I hope against hope that he isn't making some kind of pick based on their race and gender in order to "balance out the court." I hope his pick is based on how awesome of a judge they are going to be, and to hell whether they are a latina or an old white man or a fucking hindu leper. We have a black supreme court justice and he is absolute shit, he's one of the worst people on there. I'd rather he be replaced with a rich old white man who judges intelligently and fairly than keep Thomas on for racial equality. It is these social, cultural ideas that serve to continue to keep race divisions intact. By making a big deal out of the fact that the president is black, you are adding fuel to the fire that there is something special about being black.
thomas is shit isn't he, but anyway your utopian view (seemingly) of it's ok if it's just an all white world because it'll be all good anyway is in no way keeping with the reality of the present or the past which not to mention creates the future. if you were as concerned about the initial fuel and the fire as much as you are concerned about adding more fuel me and you would have probably already started an organization together but I continue to protest to you that stopping further fuel is fine, now what is going to put out the damn fire!!!

scott nathaniel
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri May 08, 2009 9:02 pm

Android Bishop wrote:
What I find irritating is that people DO make it a big deal that we have a BLACK president.
debate aside, you could be a little more gracious, come on. It is a Huge Deal that our president is black. To not talk about race and to not acknowledge race seems to be an underlying theme of yours. Race should not factor, as an ideal, but the fact is that race to this day is a factor, and to not talk about it is the wrong approach. Talking about it does not perpetuate divisiveness, it clarifies it, makes it less of an issue, becomes moot. Sweeping it under the rug perpetuates. But, to reiterate, it is a monumental achievement for the nation and Barak Obama himself, so I don't believe it's fair to belittle it.

Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Fri May 08, 2009 9:09 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:
How does your argument point out how silly mine is? Let me get this strait, you are suggesting that because some rich families' ancestors owned slaves it is therefore fair to treat the ancestors of the slave's race specially over other races. I find that reasoning preposterous. It only serves to establish the dividing line between races. Furthermore, your lack of any proposed solution only serves to discredit your position.

ok, hold on a second, did you write this:
Android Bishop wrote:
1) The privledges of families of fortune aren't allotted, they are developed by the families themselves through their actions. They exist because those families built up their resources and influence over generations. Society didn't just up and decide "hey you know what? Lets make the Henderson's the most wealthy and influential family in America." They got there via their own initiative. And they have the right to pass that down to their heirs, the same as you would if you spent your life building a fortune to leave to your own children.

That's the argument i'm refuting, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't need to have any miracle plan to solve the problem to point it out and be credible.


.lm.

Yes but that argument was directed to refute a previous argument that suggested the evils of families with wealth and how "unfair" it is that they have wealth and influence. Well of course they have influence, they built up wealth which is a very handy tool to establish influence. And even if slave labor was outlawed at the time, who is to say they wouldn't have become wealthy from minimum wage workers? It was what it was, BACK THEN. Most wealthy families didn't establish their wealth from slave labor either. I come from a pretty well off family, and we earned our way here. I'm not going to get into the whole story but to suggest that families with wealth are evil and all black families are poor because of slavery over 100 years ago is lame. There are plenty of black families that are wealthy, highly educated, and successful based upon their own initiative and hard work. Its time to stop making excuses and handing out special treatment based on race, as it only serves to exacerbate the problem.

Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Fri May 08, 2009 9:13 pm

scott nathaniel wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:
What I find irritating is that people DO make it a big deal that we have a BLACK president.
debate aside, you could be a little more gracious, come on. It is a Huge Deal that our president is black. To not talk about race and to not acknowledge race seems to be an underlying theme of yours. Race should not factor, as an ideal, but the fact is that race to this day is a factor, and to not talk about it is the wrong approach. Talking about it does not perpetuate divisiveness, it clarifies it, makes it less of an issue, becomes moot. Sweeping it under the rug perpetuates. But, to reiterate, it is a monumental achievement for the nation and Barak Obama himself, so I don't believe it's fair to belittle it.

I really dont care, I just choose not to give a fuck what color he is. I am not blind to race differences but I consider them to be cultural ones and prefer to keep them separate when discussing the broad idea of legal consistency and institutional divides.

Anyway, I dont consider obama to be a black man either. have you listened to this?
http://www.aprilwinchell.com/2009/02/05 ... king-shit/

he's whiter than I am, shit

scott nathaniel
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri May 08, 2009 9:19 pm

Android Bishop wrote:
I really dont care, I just choose not to give a fuck what color he is. I am not blind to race differences but I consider them to be cultural ones and prefer to keep them separate when discussing the broad idea of legal consistency and institutional divides.

Anyway, I dont consider obama to be a black man either. have you listened to this?
http://www.aprilwinchell.com/2009/02/05 ... king-shit/

he's whiter than I am, shit
yeah he's whiter than you! So then, in a hypothetical, the skinheads would go after you first? Right, now you just sound like a fool. I was wrong, discussion goes nowhere. You just keep regurgitating the same convoluted points. Well, you've won through default: I don't want to focus on race anymore, nighty-night

starving student
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 9:20 pm

Android Bishop wrote:
scott nathaniel wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:
What I find irritating is that people DO make it a big deal that we have a BLACK president.
debate aside, you could be a little more gracious, come on. It is a Huge Deal that our president is black. To not talk about race and to not acknowledge race seems to be an underlying theme of yours. Race should not factor, as an ideal, but the fact is that race to this day is a factor, and to not talk about it is the wrong approach. Talking about it does not perpetuate divisiveness, it clarifies it, makes it less of an issue, becomes moot. Sweeping it under the rug perpetuates. But, to reiterate, it is a monumental achievement for the nation and Barak Obama himself, so I don't believe it's fair to belittle it.

I really dont care, I just choose not to give a fuck what color he is. I am not blind to race differences but I consider them to be cultural ones and prefer to keep them separate when discussing the broad idea of legal consistency and institutional divides.

Anyway, I dont consider obama to be a black man either. have you listened to this?
http://www.aprilwinchell.com/2009/02/05 ... king-shit/

he's whiter than I am, shit
:lol: i've had those lovely snippets in my mpc for about a month now,
now things are coming down to choice and one cannot really debate 'choice', thats fine we all have to do what we want but I think it's a mistake to take race issues concerning your mother seriously and to want action, justice, but when it comes to others it's just a matter of residue, an issue to leave race out of, etc... it's your choice but it doesn't bode well for progress as a whole

starving student
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Fri May 08, 2009 9:28 pm

I appreciate the dialogue AB it's time to head out into this wonderful los angeles traffic, until next time tell your mom to open up a can of wup ass on her co-workers :mrgreen:

Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Fri May 08, 2009 9:32 pm

starving student wrote:
:lol: i've had those lovely snippets in my mpc for about a month now,
now things are coming down to choice and one cannot really debate 'choice', thats fine we all have to do what we want but I think it's a mistake to take race issues concerning your mother seriously and to want action, justice, but when it comes to others it's just a matter of residue, an issue to leave race out of, etc... it's your choice but it doesn't bode well for progress as a whole

Well then please explain to me how focusing ON race DOES bode well for equality as a whole? So long as you're focusing on race here and there you are creating yet more divides and maintaining it as an issue. Its like my mom's work situation, there was no need to bring race into the mix. But because HE choose to make it a race issue, now there's a race divide and its become the blacks at her office vs. everyone else. Race wasn't an issue until someone made it one. Likewise, for all the talk of fixing the inequalities of justice and poor education and blah blah blah, I'd rather make it an economic issue instead of a race one. If you create some state funded minority scholarship in order to boost the number of minorities in colleges, where does that leave poor white kids? how does that help eliminate race divides between minorities? Its still keeping the divide, so it doesn't make any progress towards bridging one.

Kodama
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Kodama » Fri May 08, 2009 9:49 pm

I think we are at a place in the US where race does not matter in almost all professional situations (unless you try to work with actual racists).

But that does not erase the mental and financial residue of our past. There are too many poor people of color. Yes, anyone can become rich, but it makes it much less likely if you grow up in a disadvantaged situation. I think the way out of this is color blind. Our nation must create attainable opportunities for all people. Not opportunities to become a millionaire, just an opportunity at having a comfortable life. We need to get on the ball for public health care, education, and start caring about affordable housing for every day people. People who work full time should be able to have a home, healthy food, health care, and retirement. There is no reason for anyone to make even 20x the salary of a construction worker or teacher, your contribution can never merit that kind of pay. The current system is only advantageous to the very few, and we all hold out that we might break out and make it rich, but we really need to look at how many are able to make it all.
GO VEGAN!!! - Macbook Air, Bass Station II, Some Korg shit, Live Suite, U-He, Audio Damage, Microtonic, Ohmicide, more soft stuffs, awesome controllers, euro rack modular synth,an awesome cat.

Chang
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Chang » Fri May 08, 2009 10:37 pm

starving student wrote:so basicly man what I'm saying is this, What I would like is for the playing field to be level for you and the black people that want to go to your school but how do we make that happen with out legislation, we've already proven that we (leaders of these institutions) won't do it on our own so how should it be done?

Government bureaucracy and more legislation will do nothing but create racial divide policies. If one wants it to be a truly level playing field in the world of education, the race question and which sex are you questions should be taken off of all college applications effective immediately. That would level everything out. College apps should be based on SAT and grades period, not what color or sex you are.

dredd i knight
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by dredd i knight » Fri May 08, 2009 10:37 pm

Android Bishop wrote: Yes but that argument was directed to refute a previous argument that suggested the evils of families with wealth and how "unfair" it is that they have wealth and influence. Well of course they have influence, they built up wealth which is a very handy tool to establish influence. And even if slave labor was outlawed at the time, who is to say they wouldn't have become wealthy from minimum wage workers? It was what it was, BACK THEN. Most wealthy families didn't establish their wealth from slave labor either. I come from a pretty well off family, and we earned our way here. I'm not going to get into the whole story but to suggest that families with wealth are evil and all black families are poor because of slavery over 100 years ago is lame. There are plenty of black families that are wealthy, highly educated, and successful based upon their own initiative and hard work. Its time to stop making excuses and handing out special treatment based on race, as it only serves to exacerbate the problem.
its the idea that hate, and superiority complexes, and the nature of bearing the brunt of that hate that make your argument about "back then" and "lame excuses" seem so weak to me. the whole of european society (including america) has looked down on black people as less than human for over 400 years, was in fact encouraged to because it meant less guilt for selling other humans, and you claim its time to forget about all that and make something of yourself, because we all have these oppurtunities. well NO WE DONT, and there's plenty white people whom still dont see black people as fully human, and will NOT ALLOW THEM THESE OPPURTUNITIES.
do you not think that this aa stuff was passed through by white politicians? you seem to be blaming the recipients of this rather than the law makers. and the law makers saw fit to try and help with something that is embedded deeply in american society, from the roots up. you may think that your grandparents went through the same bullshit as every struggling immigrant that came to america, that is NOT the same struggle that descendants of slaves have, nor does it carry the same emotional baggage in a country where except for accent your grandparents could pass for natives, and their children wouldn't even have that disadvantage. as for saying they're evil because they have money: no i disagree, but to say black people shouldnt have help and are making excuses, well some will take advantage of the system, some wont. thats HUMAN nature. you're exacerbating the problem by looking at it in the micro, and i can understand that, but you're failing to look at the larger picture of WHY aa might not be the right solution, but is the only idea that they cen get working, until something better comes along. now i dont believe people should get jobs they're not capable of doing, but i do believe people of colour should have the same oppurtunities and access to the jobs that white people do, and the fact was statistically, black educated men and women were not getting these jobs, hence affirmative action. it might not weork all the time, but to abolish it would be saying the US is colour blind, and i really dont think it is...

Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Fri May 08, 2009 11:01 pm

dredd i knight wrote:
Android Bishop wrote: Yes but that argument was directed to refute a previous argument that suggested the evils of families with wealth and how "unfair" it is that they have wealth and influence. Well of course they have influence, they built up wealth which is a very handy tool to establish influence. And even if slave labor was outlawed at the time, who is to say they wouldn't have become wealthy from minimum wage workers? It was what it was, BACK THEN. Most wealthy families didn't establish their wealth from slave labor either. I come from a pretty well off family, and we earned our way here. I'm not going to get into the whole story but to suggest that families with wealth are evil and all black families are poor because of slavery over 100 years ago is lame. There are plenty of black families that are wealthy, highly educated, and successful based upon their own initiative and hard work. Its time to stop making excuses and handing out special treatment based on race, as it only serves to exacerbate the problem.
its the idea that hate, and superiority complexes, and the nature of bearing the brunt of that hate that make your argument about "back then" and "lame excuses" seem so weak to me. the whole of european society (including america) has looked down on black people as less than human for over 400 years, was in fact encouraged to because it meant less guilt for selling other humans, and you claim its time to forget about all that and make something of yourself, because we all have these oppurtunities. well NO WE DONT, and there's plenty white people whom still dont see black people as fully human, and will NOT ALLOW THEM THESE OPPURTUNITIES.
do you not think that this aa stuff was passed through by white politicians? you seem to be blaming the recipients of this rather than the law makers. and the law makers saw fit to try and help with something that is embedded deeply in american society, from the roots up. you may think that your grandparents went through the same bullshit as every struggling immigrant that came to america, that is NOT the same struggle that descendants of slaves have, nor does it carry the same emotional baggage in a country where except for accent your grandparents could pass for natives, and their children wouldn't even have that disadvantage. as for saying they're evil because they have money: no i disagree, but to say black people shouldnt have help and are making excuses, well some will take advantage of the system, some wont. thats HUMAN nature. you're exacerbating the problem by looking at it in the micro, and i can understand that, but you're failing to look at the larger picture of WHY aa might not be the right solution, but is the only idea that they cen get working, until something better comes along. now i dont believe people should get jobs they're not capable of doing, but i do believe people of colour should have the same oppurtunities and access to the jobs that white people do, and the fact was statistically, black educated men and women were not getting these jobs, hence affirmative action. it might not weork all the time, but to abolish it would be saying the US is colour blind, and i really dont think it is...
a) everyone keeps on dodging the point that affirmative action PREVENTS us from becoming color blind BECAUSE it benefits certain races over others. This does not solve any problems, it only makes the cut deeper.

b) Past inflictions against one's ancestors only carriers so much weight in present times when those conditions dont exist anymore. There isnt slavery or jim crow laws anymore and there haven't been in, what, 60 years? So how long is long enough to put everything back on an even level? You will never get there so long as the institutions and cultural ideas you use to even the field are "racist" in of themselves. And you know, Jews were hated on for THOUSANDS of years from every nation leading back from sumerians to europeans and everything in between. Unlike african americans, they also experienced MASS GENOCIDE during their time on earth and that was only half a century ago. Yet you dont see them being included in minority scholarships or affirmative action, do you? No, they dont need to, cause they went out there and handled business on their own.

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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by aisling » Fri May 08, 2009 11:27 pm

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