OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

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dredd i knight
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by dredd i knight » Sat May 09, 2009 12:02 am

Android Bishop wrote:
a) everyone keeps on dodging the point that affirmative action PREVENTS us from becoming color blind BECAUSE it benefits certain races over others. This does not solve any problems, it only makes the cut deeper.

b) Past inflictions against one's ancestors only carriers so much weight in present times when those conditions dont exist anymore. There isnt slavery or jim crow laws anymore and there haven't been in, what, 60 years? So how long is long enough to put everything back on an even level? You will never get there so long as the institutions and cultural ideas you use to even the field are "racist" in of themselves. And you know, Jews were hated on for THOUSANDS of years from every nation leading back from sumerians to europeans and everything in between. Unlike african americans, they also experienced MASS GENOCIDE during their time on earth and that was only half a century ago. Yet you dont see them being included in minority scholarships or affirmative action, do you? No, they dont need to, cause they went out there and handled business on their own.
a) aa isnt racist in and of itself, its the way it gets abused thats causing problems as i wrote. it only prevents it (colour blindness) if you maintain that the playing field is even now. it is not. glaringly so in some states. and countries. when football fans stop making monkey noises when a black player gets the ball, when white people stop trying to reappropiate the word nigger, when my dreadlocks dont preclude me from certain jobs etc, then maybe we'll all be treated equally.. until then somethings got to give. your examples still haven't addressed any of the prevalent and deep rooted prejudices i spoke about. how do you feel about my points? do you know racist white people? do you think they are professional enough to be colour blind when it comes to handing a black person a job? have you ever asked any racist person in confidence about how their racism affects their job? i have ny white friends ask their white colleagues this type of stuff, and its pretty scary what comes back. my sister is being hounded at work. she has a maters degree has worked in the industry for over 20 years, and is now being forced out of her job by a manager that doesnt like her "work". she's highly competant, and she's fighting it every step of the way, not once has brought up her colour, but would he ever admit it to her if that had anything to do with it? it cuts both ways. and its a lot easier to hide racism than it is to prove it.
b) its not about PAST PROBLEMS its about ingrained attitudes that 60 or so years havent erased, only driven underground. do you think all the racists in the 50's 60's passed on any of that hate ti their kids? i do. do you think that its all equal now, because the laws for segregation have been abolished? i dont. these are fundamental rights which cant be enforced in any way. its not right to hate a colour.
the comparison to the jewish community isnt that valid. jews were vilified and abused for having too much money, and too much economic power. slaves on the other hand had only what they were given or fought for. black people have only been allowed to excell in sports and entertainment, and even then you had to show those pearly whites (ie louis armstonrg, bojangles, joe louis) to get acceptance. when they come out like mohammed ali or smith and carlos, they get villified and banned. jews got acceptance through economic power. they were hated but had large enough stakes in the economy to send their children to good schools, and influence business markets. jews were tolerated. this enabled them to wield power in a political, economic and social context. so yes they suffered some of the wosrt atrocities humans have dished out to other humans in the last century, but have had the clout to forge a jewish state, have power blocks n hollywood, and the music industry, and the senate. it is not an accurate comparison. and no i dont belive there's a zionist plot to own the world.

Chang
Posts: 286
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Chang » Sat May 09, 2009 12:55 am

dredd i knight wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:
a) everyone keeps on dodging the point that affirmative action PREVENTS us from becoming color blind BECAUSE it benefits certain races over others. This does not solve any problems, it only makes the cut deeper.

b) Past inflictions against one's ancestors only carriers so much weight in present times when those conditions dont exist anymore. There isnt slavery or jim crow laws anymore and there haven't been in, what, 60 years? So how long is long enough to put everything back on an even level? You will never get there so long as the institutions and cultural ideas you use to even the field are "racist" in of themselves. And you know, Jews were hated on for THOUSANDS of years from every nation leading back from sumerians to europeans and everything in between. Unlike african americans, they also experienced MASS GENOCIDE during their time on earth and that was only half a century ago. Yet you dont see them being included in minority scholarships or affirmative action, do you? No, they dont need to, cause they went out there and handled business on their own.
a) aa isnt racist in and of itself, its the way it gets abused thats causing problems as i wrote. it only prevents it (colour blindness) if you maintain that the playing field is even now. it is not. glaringly so in some states. and countries. when football fans stop making monkey noises when a black player gets the ball, when white people stop trying to reappropiate the word nigger, when my dreadlocks dont preclude me from certain jobs etc, then maybe we'll all be treated equally.. until then somethings got to give.


I have to say I've met just as many black bigots as I have white ones. You argue as if blacks are not racist and only all the other races are racist. Thats bull crap and playing race card. And the dreadlock job thing c'mon. If a person of any race had long heavy metal hair and was applying for a job that asked for a clean cut looking individual they would get turned down just as quick as you with dreadlocks. Some things have to be accepted and aren't ever going to change. Racism exist on many levels among all races. Maybe 400 years from now like in star trek land, it will finally be colorblind society. But don't expect it in our life time. Maybe our great great grandchildren will see it.

Machinesworking
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat May 09, 2009 1:57 am

Chang wrote: I have to say I've met just as many black bigots as I have white ones. You argue as if blacks are not racist and only all the other races are racist. Thats bull crap and playing race card. And the dreadlock job thing c'mon. If a person of any race had long heavy metal hair and was applying for a job that asked for a clean cut looking individual they would get turned down just as quick as you with dreadlocks. Some things have to be accepted and aren't ever going to change. Racism exist on many levels among all races. Maybe 400 years from now like in star trek land, it will finally be colorblind society. But don't expect it in our life time. Maybe our great great grandchildren will see it.
You make a great point for Affirmative Action, which is fine. Society itself is racist, bigoted and prejudice on every level. The only reason for AA is that it's still very much a white people in power society. Obama is an exception, not the rule. Personally I think on an individual level it's important to be as color blind as possible, on a society level it's still a situation where being white means I have more opportunities, when that changes AA will be reverse racist, until then it's a band aid.

ohiowa
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by ohiowa » Sat May 09, 2009 2:26 am

the term "reverse racism" is worse
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Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Sat May 09, 2009 7:59 am

I think the best way to get rid of racism is to all breed like crazy together until we have bred out any distinguishing races from humanity.

jlgrimes
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by jlgrimes » Sat May 09, 2009 12:40 pm

dredd i knight wrote:
Android Bishop wrote:
a) everyone keeps on dodging the point that affirmative action PREVENTS us from becoming color blind BECAUSE it benefits certain races over others. This does not solve any problems, it only makes the cut deeper.

b) Past inflictions against one's ancestors only carriers so much weight in present times when those conditions dont exist anymore. There isnt slavery or jim crow laws anymore and there haven't been in, what, 60 years? So how long is long enough to put everything back on an even level? You will never get there so long as the institutions and cultural ideas you use to even the field are "racist" in of themselves. And you know, Jews were hated on for THOUSANDS of years from every nation leading back from sumerians to europeans and everything in between. Unlike african americans, they also experienced MASS GENOCIDE during their time on earth and that was only half a century ago. Yet you dont see them being included in minority scholarships or affirmative action, do you? No, they dont need to, cause they went out there and handled business on their own.
a) aa isnt racist in and of itself, its the way it gets abused thats causing problems as i wrote. it only prevents it (colour blindness) if you maintain that the playing field is even now. it is not. glaringly so in some states. and countries. when football fans stop making monkey noises when a black player gets the ball, when white people stop trying to reappropiate the word nigger, when my dreadlocks dont preclude me from certain jobs etc, then maybe we'll all be treated equally.. until then somethings got to give. your examples still haven't addressed any of the prevalent and deep rooted prejudices i spoke about. how do you feel about my points? do you know racist white people? do you think they are professional enough to be colour blind when it comes to handing a black person a job? have you ever asked any racist person in confidence about how their racism affects their job? i have ny white friends ask their white colleagues this type of stuff, and its pretty scary what comes back. my sister is being hounded at work. she has a maters degree has worked in the industry for over 20 years, and is now being forced out of her job by a manager that doesnt like her "work". she's highly competant, and she's fighting it every step of the way, not once has brought up her colour, but would he ever admit it to her if that had anything to do with it? it cuts both ways. and its a lot easier to hide racism than it is to prove it.
b) its not about PAST PROBLEMS its about ingrained attitudes that 60 or so years havent erased, only driven underground. do you think all the racists in the 50's 60's passed on any of that hate ti their kids? i do. do you think that its all equal now, because the laws for segregation have been abolished? i dont. these are fundamental rights which cant be enforced in any way. its not right to hate a colour.
the comparison to the jewish community isnt that valid. jews were vilified and abused for having too much money, and too much economic power. slaves on the other hand had only what they were given or fought for. black people have only been allowed to excell in sports and entertainment, and even then you had to show those pearly whites (ie louis armstonrg, bojangles, joe louis) to get acceptance. when they come out like mohammed ali or smith and carlos, they get villified and banned. jews got acceptance through economic power. they were hated but had large enough stakes in the economy to send their children to good schools, and influence business markets. jews were tolerated. this enabled them to wield power in a political, economic and social context. so yes they suffered some of the wosrt atrocities humans have dished out to other humans in the last century, but have had the clout to forge a jewish state, have power blocks n hollywood, and the music industry, and the senate. it is not an accurate comparison. and no i dont belive there's a zionist plot to own the world.
I don't see where the number 60 or so years come from. 1949?

Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights act in 1964 (One hundred years approx after slaves were freed). If you look at all the marching, protesting, beatings, murder and police brutality in the 60's including MLK's assasination in 1968, there were still a lot of inequalities going on in the 1950's and a good portion of the 1960's.

IMO its more like 40 years or so since Blacks have been on a equal level playing field and even that number is arguable, because after that Riots broke out in many U.S. cities which caused some whites to leave a lot of U.S. inner city neighborhoods, also drugs came in and hit the black community hard.

So 40 something years isn't that long in time and actually pretty recent from a historical perspective (or even 60 years in that matter). I'm sure there are a good portion of 40+ forum members here.

Chang
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Chang » Sat May 09, 2009 1:32 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Chang wrote: I have to say I've met just as many black bigots as I have white ones. You argue as if blacks are not racist and only all the other races are racist. Thats bull crap and playing race card. And the dreadlock job thing c'mon. If a person of any race had long heavy metal hair and was applying for a job that asked for a clean cut looking individual they would get turned down just as quick as you with dreadlocks. Some things have to be accepted and aren't ever going to change. Racism exist on many levels among all races. Maybe 400 years from now like in star trek land, it will finally be colorblind society. But don't expect it in our life time. Maybe our great great grandchildren will see it.
You make a great point for Affirmative Action, which is fine. Society itself is racist, bigoted and prejudice on every level. The only reason for AA is that it's still very much a white people in power society. Obama is an exception, not the rule. Personally I think on an individual level it's important to be as color blind as possible, on a society level it's still a situation where being white means I have more opportunities, when that changes AA will be reverse racist, until then it's a band aid.

I would not totally agree here. AA is in itself especially in education, totally racist. If you have a poor inner-city black child with a 900 SAT and an equally poor (enter any other race here including white) child with a 900 also and the black child is automatically admitted based on color alone over the other child with identical score this is reverse discrimination and racist. This is why I said in other thread that even having a place to enter what color you are on a college application is in itself racist to begin with. Why does a college need to know what color you are? Entrance should be based on test score and performance regardless of color. 1,110 spots open to freshman class at university, the school should pick the top 1,110 scoring students regardless of sex, color etc.

Android Bishop
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Android Bishop » Sat May 09, 2009 4:14 pm

jlgrimes wrote:
I don't see where the number 60 or so years come from. 1949?

Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights act in 1964 (One hundred years approx after slaves were freed). If you look at all the marching, protesting, beatings, murder and police brutality in the 60's including MLK's assasination in 1968, there were still a lot of inequalities going on in the 1950's and a good portion of the 1960's.

IMO its more like 40 years or so since Blacks have been on a equal level playing field and even that number is arguable, because after that Riots broke out in many U.S. cities which caused some whites to leave a lot of U.S. inner city neighborhoods, also drugs came in and hit the black community hard.

So 40 something years isn't that long in time and actually pretty recent from a historical perspective (or even 60 years in that matter). I'm sure there are a good portion of 40+ forum members here.

I pulled the number 60 right out of my ass. You're missing the point. When you create institutions or cultural ideas that separate by race TO BENEFIT a specific race for whatever reason, you are NEVER going to be able to get rid of it. It doesnt matter how long its been. It maintains a race divide, yet it does it in a way that positively benefits that specific group of people and therefore provide no incentive to get rid of it. Furthermore, whenever anyone does try to eliminate it, be in now or another 50 years from now, everyone will claim it to be unconscionably racist to remove it! The whole premise is flawed. The only way to do it right is to equalize everything and let society work it through, WITHOUT creating artificial and race specific incentives to do so.

Machinesworking
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat May 09, 2009 5:11 pm

Chang wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
Chang wrote: I have to say I've met just as many black bigots as I have white ones. You argue as if blacks are not racist and only all the other races are racist. Thats bull crap and playing race card. And the dreadlock job thing c'mon. If a person of any race had long heavy metal hair and was applying for a job that asked for a clean cut looking individual they would get turned down just as quick as you with dreadlocks. Some things have to be accepted and aren't ever going to change. Racism exist on many levels among all races. Maybe 400 years from now like in star trek land, it will finally be colorblind society. But don't expect it in our life time. Maybe our great great grandchildren will see it.
You make a great point for Affirmative Action, which is fine. Society itself is racist, bigoted and prejudice on every level. The only reason for AA is that it's still very much a white people in power society. Obama is an exception, not the rule. Personally I think on an individual level it's important to be as color blind as possible, on a society level it's still a situation where being white means I have more opportunities, when that changes AA will be reverse racist, until then it's a band aid.

I would not totally agree here. AA is in itself especially in education, totally racist. If you have a poor inner-city black child with a 900 SAT and an equally poor (enter any other race here including white) child with a 900 also and the black child is automatically admitted based on color alone over the other child with identical score this is reverse discrimination and racist. This is why I said in other thread that even having a place to enter what color you are on a college application is in itself racist to begin with. Why does a college need to know what color you are? Entrance should be based on test score and performance regardless of color. 1,110 spots open to freshman class at university, the school should pick the top 1,110 scoring students regardless of sex, color etc.
To quote you, "racism exists on many levels among all races". In the US the overwhelming majority of people you get hired by are white, it's an unfair advantage. There's no way around this. I agree with your argument on principal, and ethically, but we do not live in a principled ethical society. The real issue is class, but people don't want to look at that, across the board, so all we can do is band aid the segment of society most hard hit by the disparity in wealth, poor minorities.
Do I think it sucks for poor white people? Hell yes I do! I'm almost certain that besides the students on this board and adding in cost of living in Seattle, I make less than most of you. I come from a really poor family, we were on welfare at one point etc. and I'm far from PC, my favorite jokes are the most racist sexist ones you can come up with. NONE of that changes the simple fact that in my line of work, in the liberal bastion that is the west coast, at least half my bosses and fellow employees have been racist.

Affirmative Action sucks I agree, but ignoring the fact that People are assholes across the board, that white people control most of the jobs, that I can shave my hair and wear a suit to an interview, but a black, hispanic, or asian cannot change the color of their skin, and a young black man with an accent of any kind cannot shake the stereotype that 90% + people will have of him is just stupid IMO. Have your fantasy that just leveling the playing field now will make all this go away, but here's a sampling of quotes from bosses in the last ten years:

"Niggers will kill each other, if one defends a white guy!"
"Now nobody likes to see a black man with a good looking white woman, I don't care how liberal they are!"
"Niggers will be cool to you alone, but watch how they act around other blacks towards you!"
"Every black I've hired has been lazy, they just don't like to work."
"Nah, it wasn't us!" <--- on 911 when I commented back after the other guy I was working with said he bet it "was the sand niggers that did it", I said it was probably the white supremacists like Oklahoma.

This list goes on, I just included people in management, and remember they knew I wasn't racist.
Regular white color office workers aren't any better, because I work construction and don't look the part of a hippy etc. I get to hear their shit too.
This is the "liberal" Northwest, and I have no doubt at all it's worse in the South.

It's a pipe dream IMO to think that getting rid of AA will somehow change ANY of this. What could and would do it is to stop using AA as an excuse to vent your anger towards reverse racist blacks/minorities. Reality is that we are far too close to slavery to change the way people think about blacks in particular, enough to not have to have some fucked up band aid like AA.

aqua_tek
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by aqua_tek » Sat May 09, 2009 6:20 pm

Exceprt from an actual conversation I had with a white girl at some random party
White girl: "you're from Puerto Rico?! But... you're... white... and... you speak english... well. And... "

Me: "and I don't look or act ghetto? Who would've thought, right?"

White girl: "well... um... yeah. Sorry. No offense. I didnt mean it that way. Well, I'm Italian"

Me: "none taken. oh really? you grew up there? you speak good english too, in that case"

White girl: "well... no... my grandmother's Italian. I'm from Long Island. Tee-hee!"

Me: "heh... right"


Exceprt from an actual conversation I had with a drunk NewYorican who budges in after he eavesdropped on a conversation I was having with a friend in spanish while we're waiting for drinks at a bar:
NY-rican person: "yo your spanish is perfect! where'd you learn it?"

Me: "Learned it at home. I'm from PR"

NY-rican person: "you're BORICUA!?! no shit! I would've never thought. You look like a gringo"

My friend laughs.

Me: "yeah I actually lived there my whole life until about 3 years ago"

NY-rican person: "cool. I've been there once or twice"

Me: "heh... right"

Exerpt from an actual conversation I've had with a black woman who attended to me while I was changing my license at the DMV 2 years ago:
Black woman (while she eyes my old license from PR): "You're puertorican?!"

Me: "Born and raised"

Black woman calling on her puertorican coworker: "hey! check this out. He's puertorican, can you believe that?"

Coworker: "Eres puertorrique~no?!?!"

Me: sigh... "si. nacido y criado. De Aguadilla"

They both chuckle.




I don't know what my point is, really.

starving student
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by starving student » Sat May 09, 2009 6:27 pm

Chang wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
Chang wrote: I have to say I've met just as many black bigots as I have white ones. You argue as if blacks are not racist and only all the other races are racist. Thats bull crap and playing race card. And the dreadlock job thing c'mon. If a person of any race had long heavy metal hair and was applying for a job that asked for a clean cut looking individual they would get turned down just as quick as you with dreadlocks. Some things have to be accepted and aren't ever going to change. Racism exist on many levels among all races. Maybe 400 years from now like in star trek land, it will finally be colorblind society. But don't expect it in our life time. Maybe our great great grandchildren will see it.
You make a great point for Affirmative Action, which is fine. Society itself is racist, bigoted and prejudice on every level. The only reason for AA is that it's still very much a white people in power society. Obama is an exception, not the rule. Personally I think on an individual level it's important to be as color blind as possible, on a society level it's still a situation where being white means I have more opportunities, when that changes AA will be reverse racist, until then it's a band aid.

I would not totally agree here. AA is in itself especially in education, totally racist. If you have a poor inner-city black child with a 900 SAT and an equally poor (enter any other race here including white) child with a 900 also and the black child is automatically admitted based on color alone over the other child with identical score this is reverse discrimination and racist. This is why I said in other thread that even having a place to enter what color you are on a college application is in itself racist to begin with. Why does a college need to know what color you are? Entrance should be based on test score and performance regardless of color. 1,110 spots open to freshman class at university, the school should pick the top 1,110 scoring students regardless of sex, color etc.

sup chang glad you got in on the discussion as you're one of the people around here that I consider to be using the ole noggin most of the time when you post and actualy the analytical way in which you think is perfect for this kind of topic ok let me start like this,
i believe that the opinions that you and android B are stating are correct just not in this context, imho if institutionalized racism didn't exist in this country you guys would be spot on because in reality there is no such thing as reverse racism only racism and in the absence of this countrys history to date, the programs that we are discussing now would not be affirmative action programs how could they be, they would just be racist programs. The problem is that the reality of the situation is that there is widespread discrimination which shouldn't be suprising since it has been this way since the country's inception.

a better way to look at this would be like this, take the same opinions that you have about affirmative action, and any entitlements that you might be thinking of then apply them across the board in education, the judicial system, the military, employment, housing, and medical, now add to that the fact that white people have been entitled and affirmatively acted upon in these areas since the beginning. understand what I'm saying?...........I'm not talking about privately or philosophicaly, I'm only talking about institutionaly. so chang if you and Android applied your analytical way of thinking to the entitlements that white males have always had and have today in the same way that you apply them to affirmative action entitlements for minorities you should be outraged and I'm talking on a purely academic level.

ok now look at Androids main point that if you give folks entitlements for an extended period of time then
they will not want to give them up and even call it racist if those entitlements are taken away, now I may not agree with entirely with the sentiment of that opinion but my point is why aren't you applying that same opinion to the white institutionalized entitlement that has always been, like you said you're not blind and in every single institution from education on down the line white people have been greatly entitled over minorities and females and this is on an official basis.

so chang what do you think about that you're always straight when it comes to music gear I'd appreciate the same clarity on this topic. Android has been very fuckin cool and I've got alot of respect for anybody
willing to contstructively carry on this conversation.

bosonHavoc
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by bosonHavoc » Sat May 09, 2009 6:41 pm

sparklepuff wrote:I love black people. Is that reverse racism?

I don't get it.
hahaha i love that one.


i feel that the term "reverse racism" is a racists remark.
such a silly term too.

what do you call it when you judge a person by how they act?

i don't like stupid people.. ignorance i can handle cause we are all ignorant but i just can't stand stupid people.
the term reverse racism was defiantly coined by a complete moron.


thefinger
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by thefinger » Sat May 09, 2009 8:10 pm

scott nathaniel wrote:What more is there to say.
i really love it when people say this to preface a point.

Ballack13
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Re: OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

Post by Ballack13 » Sat May 09, 2009 9:31 pm

Paranoid Android. Stoner Logic.

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