OT: Trick Question which is worse Racism or Reverse Racism ?

[Android Bishop]

so basicly man what I'm saying is this, the playing field is not level cause you feel like you're being denied access to things in this society, and the playing field has not been level for black people since they got to this country.....never, there never was such a thing as the good ole days for black people here, this place is full of imigrants like your grandparents and full of romantic stories about ellis island. but thats not how black people got here. What I would like is for the playing field to be level for you and the black people that want to go to your school but how do we make that happen with out legislation, we've already proven that we (leaders of these institutions) won't do it on our own so how should it be done?

the only legislation that should exist is the kind that abolishes slavery and makes it illegal for institutions to discriminate against race, EQUALLY. By going further and establishing special criteria for specific races is only creating race divides that exacerbates the problem. You cant go back in time and make slavery not happen no less than I can make the Armenian genocide not happen, but the way to deal with it isn't to offer specialized incentives to particular races over others. People have to take responsibility for themselves at some point and it only makes it more difficult to do that when your "anti-racism" institutions are racist themselves.

[starving student]

I agree with you with the exception that you're assuming we don't need other laws to enforce the primary laws created to enforce equality. you see we can't just use an honor system because this system has an historical pattern of dishonor, this is a part of the equation that can't be dismissed if one is to be serious. Our own history is the best source of proof. we had laws to fight institutionalized racism on the books way before affirmative action but nothing happened, they did nothing, they enforced nothing. It's like police brutality laws that did nothing and had no effect on police brutality, what did have an effect was the advent of the video camera and still that's only a little bit.
I'd press the button today that would make affirmative action dissappear if you could press a button today that would make the laws that were on the books before affirmative action have any effect, be enforced.

[Android Bishop]

regarding some things you've already said though, you not getting into school that you deserve to get into
is definitely not cool neither is your mom not being able to fire someone not doing their job but in that case your mom has to man up , I know of a similiar case over at honda, they're afraid to fire this black chick cause they are afraid of getting sued, this lady doesn't do a damn thing all day long but talk on the damn phone and play videos and she threatened to sue if she got any trouble, finally they got tired of her shit and booted her, she tried to sue but could do nothing cause she didn't have a case to stand on. that's what your mom has to look at, if dude has no case to stand on he should be booted easily but if the place has a history of discriminating against people then the situation is more difficult.

I'm not trying to make any point here but I'll share the crap situation with you for venting purposes. What you said is what I basically told my mom, it didnt make sense to me why this was such a big deal. She has emails from clients whose contracts are worth millions pleading with HR to get rid of this fucktard, so you'd think its a closed case easy.

However, her company's head of HR is also black, as is some people on the ethics board, and they all spend every day hanging out and drinking together. They got their "black clique" going on, and when they found out about the complaints they started drumming up these positive employee reports on his performance in order to sabotage the company's case against him. They got him a racial discrimination lawyer and are filing ethics charges against my mom and others for racial discrimination based on the fact that they want to fire this guy and my mom didn't promote one of her black employees to her previous position (it was because the lady wasnt qualified, but now its in the suit). The company lawyers told her it would be cheaper just to pay him his lawsuit money than to fight it in court, which they would probably lose anyway just because of how race suits are handled, so my mom now has to pay this guy a shitload of money and defend herself against ethics charges just to fire him and find someone who can do the job right.

[leisuremuffin]

1) The privledges of families of fortune aren't allotted, they are developed by the families themselves through their actions. They exist because those families built up their resources and influence over generations. Society didn't just up and decide "hey you know what? Lets make the Henderson's the most wealthy and influential family in America." They got there via their own initiative. And they have the right to pass that down to their heirs, the same as you would if you spent your life building a fortune to leave to your own children.

questions:

Did the "Henderson's" ancestors own slaves?

Did the "Henderson's" ancestors have to work as slaves, or in the prison plantation system that existed as near slaverey in the US even as recently as the 1940's?

Would the USA have reached the level of prosperity that it has if it hadn't been for slavery?

Who benefits the most form the current prosperity, the descendants of slaves, or the descendants of slave owners?

Do you really believe that all of the very wealthy are where they are based entirely on ethical hard work?



.lm.

[Android Bishop]

I agree with you with the exception that you're assuming we don't need other laws to enforce the primary laws created to enforce equality. you see we can't just use an honor system because this system has an historical pattern of dishonor, this is a part of the equation that can't be dismissed if one is to be serious. Our own history is the best source of proof. we had laws to fight institutionalized racism on the books way before affirmative action but nothing happened, they did nothing, they enforced nothing. It's like police brutality laws that did nothing and had no effect on police brutality, what did have an effect was the advent of the video camera and still that's only a little bit.
I'd press the button today that would make affirmative action dissappear if you could press a button today that would make the laws that were on the books before affirmative action have any effect, be enforced.

the problem with this line of thinking is the same problem we have with recycling. With recylcing, environmentalists are pushing a solution that only serves to delay the inevitable. Recycling is not 100% effective, its just making the inevitable results happen over a longer, slower period of time (and with more energy consumption to boot). Because of this, there is less incentive to find a REAL solution NOW, because the ill effects are pushed further away in time. What we should be doing is finding an real solution that actually solves the problem.

Its the same with our solutions to race issues. We're creating a band aid for a raced based discrimination problem that in and of itself creates race divides, only the negative effects of it aren't felt so that racist band aid is going to sit there forever continuing to establish race divisions.

[Android Bishop]

questions:

Did the "Henderson's" ancestors own slaves?

Did the "Henderson's" ancestors have to work as slaves, or in the prison plantation system that existed as near slaverey in the US even as recently as the 1940's?

Do you really believe that all of the very wealthy are where they are based entirely on ethical hard work?
.lm.

So what's your point? What do you propose society do about it? Go back in time? Punish/reward people who had nothing to do about it? Continue to establish race divides by treating the former slave race specially?

[starving student]

regarding some things you've already said though, you not getting into school that you deserve to get into
is definitely not cool neither is your mom not being able to fire someone not doing their job but in that case your mom has to man up , I know of a similiar case over at honda, they're afraid to fire this black chick cause they are afraid of getting sued, this lady doesn't do a damn thing all day long but talk on the damn phone and play videos and she threatened to sue if she got any trouble, finally they got tired of her shit and booted her, she tried to sue but could do nothing cause she didn't have a case to stand on. that's what your mom has to look at, if dude has no case to stand on he should be booted easily but if the place has a history of discriminating against people then the situation is more difficult.

I'm not trying to make any point here but I'll share the crap situation with you for venting purposes. What you said is what I basically told my mom, it didnt make sense to me why this was such a big deal. She has emails from clients whose contracts are worth millions pleading with HR to get rid of this fucktard, so you'd think its a closed case easy.

However, her company's head of HR is also black, as is some people on the ethics board, and they all spend every day hanging out and drinking together. They got their "black clique" going on, and when they found out about the complaints they started drumming up these positive employee reports on his performance in order to sabotage the company's case against him. They got him a racial discrimination lawyer and are filing ethics charges against my mom and others for racial discrimination based on the fact that they want to fire this guy and my mom didn't promote one of her black employees to her previous position (it was because the lady wasnt qualified, but now its in the suit). The company lawyers told her it would be cheaper just to pay him his lawsuit money than to fight it in court, which they would probably lose anyway just because of how race suits are handled, so my mom now has to pay this guy a shitload of money and defend herself against ethics charges just to fire him and find someone who can do the job right.

well that is obviously some bullshit situation, I would say that he may have HR on his side but it sounds like your mom has the clients on her side and I would appeal to them because they are what's most important to the company, if the clients aren't being handled right who ever is above the black clique should be very intrested in how their clients are being treated. that's my opinion, not fighting will make things worse because the next time they will have a precident to build more bs on.

now i don't know your mother or you but thats my opinion based on what you told me, I hope you understand that what is happening to your mother and what has happened to you regarding school doesn't change the fact of what's fair, it would seem that your family has been treated unfairly but if you can recognize that you should be able to recognize what's been going on since the end of slavery but you seem like you can not fathom the level of racial in-equality at work in todays present.

[leisuremuffin]

what's my point?


It's an argument against your point that everyone is where they are in this society based solely on the merits of their ancestors' honest hard work.

It's also a pretty good argument for why you shouldn't get your panties in a bunch over the evils of affirmative action.


as to what more "society" should do about it, I wouldn't know. It doesn't preclude me from pointing out how silly your argument is.


.lm.

[DrXparaMental]

you're lying. what i'm saying is clear, if you can't match my blacks in from poor neighborhoods talk with your own by yourself or match my talk about legislation up with your own by yourself then your priorities are clear. peace out

Do you see that thing above what I am writing here. That's called a quote. Could you please learn how to use that function and attempt something slightly more in context please.

My lie for instance. Could you define it with a quote and state exactly why it's a lie. That would be a nice start. Try and remain unemotional if at all possible.

Please read back to yourself what I have emboldened above and ask yourself, is this information intelligible? Because it's not my man. Not at all. Make statements and not self interpreted generalizations somewhere between here and Sun Ra.

Try it. Make a concise sentence by starting with a capitol and ending with a period. Force your expressed thoughts to start and end completely and exactingly. Include something other than a general abstract summation of your personal feelings. Respond to quotes, not thin air.

peace in, (hopefully your heart)

[Android Bishop]

well that is obviously some bullshit situation, I would say that he may have HR on his side but it sounds like your mom has the clients on her side and I would appeal to them because they are what's most important to the company, if the clients aren't being handled right who ever is above the black clique should be very intrested in how their clients are being treated. that's my opinion, not fighting will make things worse because the next time they will have a precident to build more bs on.

now i don't know your mother or you but thats my opinion based on what you told me, I hope you understand that what is happening to your mother and what has happened to you regarding school doesn't change the fact of what's fair, it would seem that your family has been treated unfairly but if you can recognize that you should be able to recognize what's been going on since the end of slavery but you seem like you can not fathom the level of racial in-equality at work in todays present.

i wasn't trying to make a point with that story.

However, I am not BLIND to racial inequality. What I suggest, however, is that the institutional barriers that previously existed have been removed. What is left is cultural residues that can only be fixed over time by ALL races taking responsibility for themselves and moving past it by eliminating all ideas of race divides. By continuing to harbor divisions of race, whether it be institutionalized or social, one cannot hope to bridge these divides or make it "even". This includes positive treatment targeting individual races, because it is still a dividing factor. You dont see many Chinese or Japanese people demanding large reparations or special treatment on college applications because their ancestors were either railroad slaves or sent to internment camps during WWII. In fact, I'm pretty sure they dont even get counted as minorities for affirmative action purposes because they dont need any help, they are more than qualified and thus have no problems getting accepted. I might be wrong about that though.

[Android Bishop]

what's my point?


It's an argument against your point that everyone is where they are in this society based solely on the merits of their ancestors' honest hard work.

It's also a pretty good argument for why you shouldn't get your panties in a bunch over the evils of affirmative action.


as to what more "society" should do about it, I wouldn't know. It doesn't preclude me from pointing out how silly your argument is.


.lm.

How does your argument point out how silly mine is? Let me get this strait, you are suggesting that because some rich families' ancestors owned slaves it is therefore fair to treat the ancestors of the slave's race specially over other races. I find that reasoning preposterous. It only serves to establish the dividing line between races. Furthermore, your lack of any proposed solution only serves to discredit your position.

[starving student]

well that is obviously some bullshit situation, I would say that he may have HR on his side but it sounds like your mom has the clients on her side and I would appeal to them because they are what's most important to the company, if the clients aren't being handled right who ever is above the black clique should be very intrested in how their clients are being treated. that's my opinion, not fighting will make things worse because the next time they will have a precident to build more bs on.

now i don't know your mother or you but thats my opinion based on what you told me, I hope you understand that what is happening to your mother and what has happened to you regarding school doesn't change the fact of what's fair, it would seem that your family has been treated unfairly but if you can recognize that you should be able to recognize what's been going on since the end of slavery but you seem like you can not fathom the level of racial in-equality at work in todays present.

i wasn't trying to make a point with that story.

However, I am not BLIND to racial inequality. What I suggest, however, is that the institutional barriers that previously existed have been removed. What is left is cultural residues that can only be fixed over time by ALL races taking responsibility for themselves and moving past it by eliminating all ideas of race divides. By continuing to harbor divisions of race, whether it be institutionalized or social, one cannot hope to bridge these divides or make it "even". This includes positive treatment targeting individual races, because it is still a dividing factor. You dont see many Chinese or Japanese people demanding large reparations or special treatment on college applications because their ancestors were either railroad slaves or sent to internment camps during WWII. In fact, I'm pretty sure they dont even get counted as minorities for affirmative action purposes because they dont need any help, they are more than qualified and thus have no problems getting accepted. I might be wrong about that though.

see thats you wanting to go by the honor system, thats not even practical, we are a nation of laws, do you just want anarchy........of course not (i hope) it's no different than any other injustice that are not based in race societies use laws to fight these things either laws or guns and i preffer laws.
I agree with you about bandaiding the situation in every respect, that means do something about the issue now, that does not mean just eliminate race based legislation and leave it alone. you sound like you are hoping that all of those people who are upset that they have a black president just 'get over it' it is not that simple, minorities, women, and martians are still fighting for equal footing as you've said you recognize, that fight doesn't call for a get over it attitude any more than you could just get over what's happening to your mother, it's not right and something needs to be done now, a real solution. not a bandaid.

[Android Bishop]

see thats you wanting to go by the honor system, thats not even practical, we are a nation of laws, do you just want anarchy........of course not (i hope) it's no different than any other injustice that are not based in race societies use laws to fight these things either laws or guns and i preffer laws.
I agree with you about bandaiding the situation in every respect, that means do something about the issue now, that does not mean just eliminate race based legislation and leave it alone. you sound like you are hoping that all of those people who are upset that they have a black president just 'get over it' it is not that simple, minorities, women, and martians are still fighting for equal footing as you've said you recognize, that fight doesn't call for a get over it attitude any more than you could just get over what's happening to your mother, it's not right and something needs to be done now, a real solution. not a bandaid.

No I want to go by an 'equal treatment for everybody based on individual merit and circumstance' system. I never proposed anarchy, what I proposed was keeping laws that prevented things like slavery and race discrimination and getting rid of laws, institutions, and social stigmas that only serve to maintain race divides, even if the effect is a positive effect for the targeted racial minorities.

[starving student]

you see I think here is were we see things very differently, I don't believe what is happening today is cultural residue, you think that all of the barriers are removed but that is not the case, if it was so it wouldn't be such a big deal that obama is president, there would be more than 1 black senator in the country, and more than 1 black judge on the supreme court, it wouldn't be such a big deal that we might get a female hispanic on the supreme court, things are only fine and dandy in the bizzarro earth dimension
but not in this one.
for instance you think what is happening to your mom is cultural residue?.........i think not.
these issues are serious they are systemic and they effect everyone.

[leisuremuffin]

How does your argument point out how silly mine is? Let me get this strait, you are suggesting that because some rich families' ancestors owned slaves it is therefore fair to treat the ancestors of the slave's race specially over other races. I find that reasoning preposterous. It only serves to establish the dividing line between races. Furthermore, your lack of any proposed solution only serves to discredit your position.

ok, hold on a second, did you write this:

1) The privledges of families of fortune aren't allotted, they are developed by the families themselves through their actions. They exist because those families built up their resources and influence over generations. Society didn't just up and decide "hey you know what? Lets make the Henderson's the most wealthy and influential family in America." They got there via their own initiative. And they have the right to pass that down to their heirs, the same as you would if you spent your life building a fortune to leave to your own children.

That's the argument i'm refuting, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't need to have any miracle plan to solve the problem to point it out and be credible.


.lm.