Talent vs Imagination

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
4am
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by 4am » Tue May 19, 2009 3:10 pm

talent and musical education are two different things
there are also different forms of talent (talent for finding new ideas, for getting gigs, public relations, for fitting the actual hype criterium or for knowing where you want to go in music...)

the part about musicians is probably due to bad experiences, it is not always the case

but i agree with the fact that instinct is more important than musical education

taskrok
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by taskrok » Tue May 19, 2009 5:31 pm

RT RT RT!
Great Read, i was about to quit yesterday!

astar
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by astar » Tue May 19, 2009 6:13 pm

Interesting post... Just to add my 2 cents:

I think the greatest music is that which expresses the innermost soul of a person or people. This is essentially what separates something that will stand the test of time vs. something that might be impressive for a while before it is essentially forgotten.

Everything else is basically just extra "fluff". Whether you sell out a venue full of thousands or whether you just perform or write something for a single person, this has no bearing on the value of what you create. The value of your creation can only be measured by how true it is to your vision, how well it reflects what's inside you and the effect it has on those you share it with.

Also I think another thing often forgotten by some composers is the idea of context. For example, the same piece of music performed or listened to within a different context can express a much different result. So looking at the art in a vacuum can never be sufficient to see its true value, sometimes it is this context around the work that makes it magical.
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by pulsoc » Tue May 19, 2009 6:51 pm

Tone Deft wrote:I don't really get blogging, most people are not that interesting, but it seems many people do. do as you will, ignore the naysayers. at least you're spreading positive vibes.
I just find it annoying that these "blog" posts are a thinly veiled attempt to sell shit on "how to succeed in the music biz" with no evidence that the dude has any idea what the hell he is talking about. "I sold out the Roxy in 1989" and "Check out my dance tracks that some nameless but fairly important DJ said was good" are not exactly qualifiers for a legitimate expert in the field IMO. On the other hand, you have guys who sell stuff like Forge and Mike and even the Belgians, who really contribute their time and effort to the "Ableton community". Not to mentoin Cosm!

I think if anything this dude should be selling materials on how to market shit, because he obviously knows something about THAT.

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Sage » Tue May 19, 2009 7:00 pm

Talent =/= skill first of all, it's a word used totally incorrectly within the music world.

Being trained doesn't affect your imagination, you either have it or you don't. But some people play musical instruments purely because they enjoy playing instruments rather than because they want to write songs, become famous and change the world, or just take lots of drugs and get laid every half an hour and forget to change the world.

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by abort » Tue May 19, 2009 7:06 pm

pulsoc wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I don't really get blogging, most people are not that interesting, but it seems many people do. do as you will, ignore the naysayers. at least you're spreading positive vibes.
I just find it annoying that these "blog" posts are a thinly veiled attempt to sell shit on "how to succeed in the music biz" with no evidence that the dude has any idea what the hell he is talking about. "I sold out the Roxy in 1989" and "Check out my dance tracks that some nameless but fairly important DJ said was good" are not exactly qualifiers for a legitimate expert in the field IMO. On the other hand, you have guys who sell stuff like Forge and Mike and even the Belgians, who really contribute their time and effort to the "Ableton community". Not to mentoin Cosm!

I think if anything this dude should be selling materials on how to market shit, because he obviously knows something about THAT.
But you have this guy who takes that time to wright out his LIFE! ...maybe some are not as social!?

as the virtual limb gets thinner I'd rather stab myself dead than to fall.

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Tone Deft » Tue May 19, 2009 7:14 pm

pulsoc wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:I don't really get blogging, most people are not that interesting, but it seems many people do. do as you will, ignore the naysayers. at least you're spreading positive vibes.
I just find it annoying that these "blog" posts are a thinly veiled attempt to sell shit on "how to succeed in the music biz" with no evidence that the dude has any idea what the hell he is talking about. "I sold out the Roxy in 1989" and "Check out my dance tracks that some nameless but fairly important DJ said was good" are not exactly qualifiers for a legitimate expert in the field IMO. On the other hand, you have guys who sell stuff like Forge and Mike and even the Belgians, who really contribute their time and effort to the "Ableton community". Not to mentoin Cosm!

I think if anything this dude should be selling materials on how to market shit, because he obviously knows something about THAT.
so what should be done? there's NO reason to ban the guy. he's a nice person, you don't want to always be berating him. some people (n00bs really) like his posts, but there are MUCH lamer threads being started all the time by people 'starving' for attention (HA!! :P )

I agree that I don't really care for his writing (no opinion given, trying to stay positive) and blog posts fly in the face of what a forum is but what should be done?

if someone can make a buck off of music stuff, why not, it's not like he's scamming people.

you either ignore him or debate with him on the points you disagree with and take him to task. if he's full of it, that will show.

my $0.02.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by pulsoc » Tue May 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
pulsoc wrote:he's a bullshit hustla
so what should be done? there's NO reason to ban the guy. he's a nice person, you don't want to always be berating him. some people (n00bs really) like his posts, but there are MUCH lamer threads being started all the time by people 'starving' for attention (HA!! :P )

I agree that I don't really care for his writing (no opinion given, trying to stay positive) and blog posts fly in the face of what a forum is but what should be done?

if someone can make a buck off of music stuff, why not, it's not like he's scamming people.

you either ignore him or debate with him on the points you disagree with and take him to task. if he's full of it, that will show.

my $0.02.
I don't want to BAN him, just wanted to point out that he doesn't really contribute anything to the community except for these transparently sales-oriented "conversation" starter posts. Just a reminder every time he does it.

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by LoopStationZebra » Tue May 19, 2009 7:50 pm

no.
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by taskrok » Tue May 19, 2009 8:01 pm

why berate him?
it seems like he has an opinion, maybe not everyone has the the same one, but who cares..

plus whats he trying to sell, optimism? Shame on him.

the noob comment seems like elitism....

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by waffle » Wed May 20, 2009 1:40 am

The OP is just rationalizing his lack of music education. Humans do that - they adapt their values to fit their current situation. Ever notice it's only the poor people who say "money isn't important"?

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by innerstatejt » Wed May 20, 2009 3:50 am

Polsoc,

You seem very frustrated that I write from my experience and my opinions and share those opinions in a forum. I figure if I am going to write something, I should put a little time into it before I share it. I'm not bothered whether you agree with it or not. That isn't really the point.
If you are talking about contribution to this forum and beyond, who is is making a better contribution, someone who speaks his mind in hopes of making people think about certain subjects, or someone who comes in and says that person sucks? The easy solution is to not read what you don't want to read and let those who enjoy it, enjoy it.

Yes, I sell Ableton tutorials and I happen to have alot of people from around the world tell me they appreciate that I make them. This is no secret. My free Blogs may or may not draw people to my website, but those who purchase from my site do so because I offer something that they want. I've never had someone ask for a refund, so that tells me that what I do is appreciated.

If I was only interested in selling products, I would probably only write About Ableton related subjects and I wouldn't spend as much time as I do answering all the questions that I get by email and phone calls for free. I also wouldn't be putting so many free tutorials up on youtube. I'm not really that competitive in this market either. In fact I try to help promote others who I find to have useful information. There is room for everybody. I remember what it was like to not know anything about music software and it was very frustrating. I am here to be a part of making that path easier for others. I think I'm doing my part. Even those that I've talked to from Ableton appreciate what I do.

As far as my music goes, it's so silly to talk about it's merit in terms of who has or hasn't supported it. Nonetheless I have had greater support than you have suggested. A small list of supporters would be John Digweed, Hernan Cattaneo (who said one of my tracks was his biggest track for 9 months striaght in DJ mag and BPM), Way out West(big plays from both members), James Holden, Tigerhook corp, Taylor, Low Fidelity allstars. There are several others that I can't remember at the moment. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day. The only person I am trying to impress is myself and like all of us, I sometimes am not living up to my potential.

I normally don't like to do that much horn tooting but whether you like what I do or not, even some of the best find my work good enough to support. I listened to your music Polsoc like I told you before and I thought it was good. I have no idea about its commercial merits, but I would never say that you don't contribute to the community. I'm just not certain why I should be a target.

Many of the people on these forums sell their music. Is that somehow more honorable than selling training Videos? Anyway, I guess you can talk as much crap as you like and I'll keep doing the things that obviously piss you off. At least you know that what I do isn't meant as a personal attack on you.

"peace love and harmony.. but maybe in the next world" - the smiths
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Tone Deft » Wed May 20, 2009 3:58 am

pulsoc wrote:I don't want to BAN him, just wanted to point out that he doesn't really contribute anything to the community except for these transparently sales-oriented "conversation" starter posts.
"what have you done for me lately?"

"and if you think peace is a common goal that goes to show how little you know."
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by scott nathaniel » Wed May 20, 2009 4:17 am

innerstatejt wrote:I normally don't like to do that much horn tooting but whether you like what I do or not, even some of the best find my work good enough to support. I listened to your music Polsoc like I told you before and I thought it was good. I have no idea about its commercial merits, but I would never say that you don't contribute to the community. I'm just not certain why I should be a target.
You contribute to this community, which is more than I can say for myself, at least. When I first purchased Live 7, my first Live experience, I would peruse YouTube for good vids, and yours were the first ones I encountered. They were well informed, helpful, and although I'm a nobody, you get props from me for that. And hey, I didn't have to pay for them, so I didn't feel any pressures or solicitations,so post on, amigo.

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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Machinesworking » Wed May 20, 2009 6:06 am

pepezabala wrote:gjm is right. It's stupid to separate the self-taught talents from the educated musicians. I always hated the attitude of some conservatory musicians that wouldn't take anyone seriously who would not have some real skills on his instrument. But to say "we gonna do music from the heart, and anyone who has practiced scales can't do this because he lost the naïve approach to music" is the same way of excluding other approaches.
+1 on this. I'm largely self taught, had basic music theory training, and guitar lessons etc. but the larger part of my "training" has been on my own. I would NEVER doubt the importance of trained technically skilled musicians though. I tend to write songs (about one out of every four) in odd time signatures, with odd feel, or accents in atypical places. Other musicians that bang out four chord 4/4 shit just don't get it, and I get more work done with people who have a love of the complex and technically challenging. With that being said though, none of what I write sounds complex to people who aren't musically trained.

At the moment though I'm in two bands, one with a drummer and bass player, where I'm asked to keep it in 4/4. My Ableton Live laptop / keyboard /guitar band is the one where I get to fuck it up, one song in 5/4, one in 5/4, 4/4 and 9/4, and a bone crusher in 15/16 and 13/4. I had a live drummer for the Ableton band, but the song in multiple time signatures kind of messed him up too much. :?

There are no absolutes with this, I couldn't play a C minor solo off the top of my head to save my life, but I can follow the most whacked rhythmic structures with relative ease. Also, Rober Fripp is a genius to me, even if he's a dogmatic scale player.

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