Talent vs Imagination

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Tone Deft
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Tone Deft » Mon May 18, 2009 7:32 pm

btw - nobody trolled you, I don't think you could be trolled, you're very level headed. if I were to troll you I'd post something that would get an excited reaction from you and then I'd make fun of your reaction, games like that. I don't think you'd fall for that.

IMO someone has the same right to challenge your blog style of posts as you do in making them. if they want to be rude to you about it, that's their reputation on the line just ignore them, or even better, listen to them and try to get along by changing you style, if you can.

I don't really get blogging, most people are not that interesting, but it seems many people do. do as you will, ignore the naysayers. at least you're spreading positive vibes.

the intro was OK, I like the '4 chord wonder' stuff. you lost me in the middle and the end has some nice vibes to it. personally I appreciate BRIEF posts that get to the point. as far as the holistic advice on music, we all work differently. I do appreciate your take on it, keep it simple, the same advice might apply to your style of posting.

YMMV.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

boska
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by boska » Mon May 18, 2009 8:07 pm

Gab wrote:
innerstatejt wrote: * Tend to not work well with other musicians
* Tend to be more interested in themselves than with complimenting the people they are playing with and tend to prefer playing difficult things (often at loud volumes) even when simplicity complements a song better.
* Tend to be very good at playing impressive riffs that have been played into the ground by other “musicians”already.
* Tend to play music from a more critical, technical and sterile left brained perspective.
* Play to impress other musicians but don’t often connect with the majority of non-musician listeners.
* Often shrug off the beauty of happy accidents and incidentals that would make their music more unique, expressive and human.
* Tend to be happy just playing their instrument day in and day out without the desire to play with a collaboration of instruments in mind.
* Tend to learn all of their favorite leads and solos instead of investigating what makes their instrument work well throughout a whole song.
* Rarely have the perspective to know when NOT to play.
You've perfectly described the few guitards I've played with.

innerstatejt wrote:Here are some advantages I feel have come from my lack of musical talent:

* I have very few musical rules that stand in the way of expressing my ideas
* Everytime I discover a new chord or sound it’s a magical personal experience. Had I started learning every chord known to man, nothing I ever played would be a surprise to me. As it is, I can be amazed and surprised by what others might consider to be frighteningly simple.
* I have no fear of simplicity
* Instead of learning song structure and arrangement AFTER learning all those complex solos and chord progressions, I first learn the simple building blocks to song construction. The big surprise in this is to discover that rarely do the complexities actually draw you to a song.
* I’m not afraid to manipulate, edit, destroy or erase any part I create because without my talent based ego involved I have little attachment to what I create.
* I get to continue to have a childlike naivety and curiosity to every new project I start.
* I have less resistance to switching musical gears, instruments or styles.
* Its much easier to walk away from something that isn’t working, even if you have put a good amount of time into it
* You become much more interested in the sound of your full song than in the sound of the instrument you play best (often times not the most interesting part of your song).
* I am still able to enjoy listening to simple music without a judgemental ear. (I do however daydream about how a certain sound was achieved, but the “not knowing” keeps music magical and mysterious)
* I get to spend more of my time actually making my own music instead of learning someone elses (more creative output).
* It bugs the hell out of “real” musicians when you break rules and still come up with something, listenable, likeable or even catchy.
You couldn't have worded it better.
Wow, you seem to have only met teenagers and amateurs so far in your quest to find like-minded musicians. Let me sum up the genres I know of that both have a crowd and are primarily concerned with instrumental proficiency vs. crafting music; prog-metal. There you go. The rest of the world knows which one matters...

Music education (in an institution or not) is a long and winding road, on which you are humbled again and again, whether you are playing with a poor time-feel, with little or no interplay, or in any other way not listening and contributing to the music. After a couple of years of this, ALL of the instrumentalists I know who are still dedicated to playing their own and other people's music have learned these lessons very, very well. I can naturally only describe my country and the institutions I know, but that's another discussion...

And for the conception of "us against them" amongst electronic musicians... why in the world would anyone who makes music not define themselves as musicians? And why create prejudice and segregation by using a rethoric of disagreement rather that agreement, seeing as the musicians who have created the music you listen to and love, obviously agree with you on a very fundamental level (whether playing classical, punk, electronic, pop, whatever)?

Sorry if I seem provoked, I do really understand your frustration with poor musicianship amongst instrumentalists, seeing as I also encounter it from time to time...

Gab
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Gab » Mon May 18, 2009 8:18 pm

boska wrote:Sorry if I seem provoked, I do really understand your frustration with poor musicianship amongst instrumentalists, seeing as I also encounter it from time to time...
Well, my stance may seem a bit harsh, but it was more tongue-in-cheek than raw bashing of 'people who don't understand music the it's meant to be played' (which would be a stupid statement, I agree).

I've only played with people I had, I always found out afterwards, few common points with, but this will not prevent me from joining other people later when I want to.
'If they act too hip, you know they can’t play shit.'

boska
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by boska » Mon May 18, 2009 8:48 pm

Yeah, well, I guess my post was even more for the OP, but I guess I need to learn this quote system a little better :P

abort
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by abort » Tue May 19, 2009 1:32 am

I wanted to thank you for sharing your blog with us innerstatejt. Found your tutorials easy to follow.

innerstatejt
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by innerstatejt » Tue May 19, 2009 1:36 am

Yeah, I sold it out when I was 20. Excellent show! I believe july 30th 1989. My old band was very
80's new wave/goth. We have a webpage up because we are planning a reunion show next
year. Should be a blast!

http://www.myspace.com/NegativeImage
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chris vine
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by chris vine » Tue May 19, 2009 1:40 am

innerstatejt wrote:Talent vs Imagination

From my personal experience, I have found that musicians, for the most part:

* Tend to not work well with other musicians
* Tend to be more interested in themselves than with complimenting the people they are playing with and tend to prefer playing difficult things (often at loud volumes) even when simplicity complements a song better.
* Tend to be very good at playing impressive riffs that have been played into the ground by other “musicians”already.
* Tend to play music from a more critical, technical and sterile left brained perspective.
* Play to impress other musicians but don’t often connect with the majority of non-musician listeners.
* Often shrug off the beauty of happy accidents and incidentals that would make their music more unique, expressive and human.
* Tend to be happy just playing their instrument day in and day out without the desire to play with a collaboration of instruments in mind.
* Tend to learn all of their favorite leads and solos instead of investigating what makes their instrument work well throughout a whole song.
* Rarely have the perspective to know when NOT to play.
Speaking as another "untrained" or maybe "uneducated" musician - ie can't read or write, have no theory background - which IMO is a blessing AND a curse depending on the gig:

although I agree with some of yr comments, any of the above list of misdemeanours would get a player's ass fired PDQ from a gig with decent musicians - "trained" or not.

innerstatejt
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by innerstatejt » Tue May 19, 2009 2:41 am

Thanks Tone for the comment. Yeah, like anything, my opinion and the amount of words I use to make my points is only my opinion and open to discussion. This opinion is based on my experience. Some people will connect and others will be repulsed. I think that's a very good thing.

For those who disagree with my point of view, I hope you read that I have utmost respect for musicians the put the "song" above their own instrument and playing ability. The musicians who really impress me are those who spend as much if not more time listening than they do playing.
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OvertoneZero
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by OvertoneZero » Tue May 19, 2009 4:30 am

The O chord - that could be like a madlib, you know, blood type A, Chord type O

Music with a SPONTANEOUSLY EMERGING HARMONIC ELEMENT:

G G A A C C O O O O

'Wait till the part when it gets to the O chord..'

Jazz, I see you and raise you

As for myself, the only topic on which I purport to speak with even a shred of authority, I've moved on (at least temporarily) in the last year or so from semi serious dabbling in electronic production to pursue the Special Olympics of guitar playing with greater fervor.. once I have rehearsed to an appropriate level of grandeur, I plan to showcase my precious guitar playing with a series of musically irrelevant YouTube clips.

Maybe if I wank hard enough.. I have been criticized before for playing one note over and over and over again, but maybe that's not too imaginative either. I don't know.

Tone Deft
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Tone Deft » Tue May 19, 2009 4:35 am

the O chord is the sound your mom, sister and girlfriend make when I wink at them during my solo.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

OvertoneZero
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by OvertoneZero » Tue May 19, 2009 5:02 am

yeah that cums it up better

pepezabala
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by pepezabala » Tue May 19, 2009 5:35 am

Hmm, both kinds of musicians have advantages: The well trained and educated professionals and the avantarde self-taught diletants. I like the second kind a lot, I always loved it when a friend learned to play three chords on a guitar and makes his/her first song, most often it's brilliant stuff, especiall if people are unknowingly doing stuff like shifting between bars of different lengths etc. They often write stuff that anyone with musical training would never do.

Pitch Black
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by Pitch Black » Tue May 19, 2009 7:24 am

i agree with pepe you need both. the "muso types" benefit from playing with "self-trained chancers who play with feeling" and vice-versa.

often when producing a band that's the balance you are trying to get right. half the band might be technical experts and reliable as fook, but they would be a bit uninspiring on their own, tight but unspectacular - however they hold down the musical backbone.
balance these against the freaks who bought a $100 pawnshop guitar and some fx pedals and make their unique sound universe - but wouldn't have the faintest idea how to write/structure a song or tune, and their noodlings would be inaccessible to most listeners.
the challenge becomes balancing these opposite but complimentary forces up to the point of a finished recording, and getting what's great about each side's output presented in the best possible light, in a way that lets the listener in.

the most exciting bands i've worked with seem have that blend of freaky experimentation and reliable ability-to-deliver.
...bald, glib terms i know...

then you have to try to play both sides off against each other when you're working solo

gjm
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by gjm » Tue May 19, 2009 9:55 am

I think the OP has needlessly created a separation of musicians as a whole.

While describing certain types of characters quite accurately, they are traits that can be found everywhere regarding groups of people who are self taught vs formally trained. In reality, it is rare to find someone, musically speaking, who can at the same time be interested and involved in playing music for the long haul yet remain static in their learning. With all systems there are people who like to buck them, for many reasons. Deciding not to formally learn a documented system of musical language so as to stay naive and fresh is just silly. Generally you will find the so called under educated muso's will often develop their own systems of describing their music in writing, or use visual systems to help them repeat their discoveries.

Every single one of the traits you have listed regarding the musician are traits that have nothing to to with formal musical training. They are ego/attitude tendencies found in many non musicians, often in equal amounts. Issues of co operation, vanity, showmanship, system rigidness, rank, being 'in tune' or awareness, satisfaction, purpose and sensitivity are all character traits or skills that most people have to deal with in others in some way or another. Its just so happens that society focuses easily on musicians and their skills, and that music can make these character traits quite transparent or obvious.

Pitting talent against imagination is not really fair. Quantifying talent, as a recent thread tried, has so many variations and opinions. The exercise of imagination musically is often the result of the seeds planted by new found skill. I have often heard someone exclaim.."just imagine, I can do this.....now". It is often because someone bothers to up skill them selves that new doors open and they see potential where they could not before. Their imagination is fueled by constantly strengthening their foundation and by adding new building blocks. Now whether or not they are aware of their personality issues is a different story.
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pepezabala
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Re: Talent vs Imagination

Post by pepezabala » Tue May 19, 2009 11:07 am

gjm is right. It's stupid to separate the self-taught talents from the educated musicians. I always hated the attitude of some conservatory musicians that wouldn't take anyone seriously who would not have some real skills on his instrument. But to say "we gonna do music from the heart, and anyone who has practiced scales can't do this because he lost the naïve approach to music" is the same way of excluding other approaches.

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