Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Angstrom » Sun May 24, 2009 2:41 pm

3dot... wrote:
Angstrom wrote:interesting subject, and you seem to be correct. In fact you can see it doing the bad thang while you drop a sample into arrangment. The 'ghostly' drag and drop version looks fine and once it is dropped the kick transient is faded.
This topic needs to be in bugs and problems.

It seems to me that the problem lies with the new fade/crossfade system, because when you 'reset fade' the supposed 'non-fade' actually has more fade than it should.

I will make a post in L8 Beta bugs with images
hey... it's not a matter of editing the fades out..

1.take a clip drop it on a track...duplicate the track
2.check to see there are no fades
3.drop utility on 1 track phaze invert L/R
4.loop 2 tracks together = no sound = complete cancelation
5.consolidate one of the clips
6.check to see there are no fades and that warp is off.
7.play --> clickidy click
:x
I'm not saying "simply edit out fades to fix this"
what I mean to say is : there is a transient bug which traces back to the fade feature implementation.

did you check my bug thread?

zoom in on your arrangement timeline as you drop a kick drum into arrangement.
you will see that as you hover the new kick over where you are about to drop it the transient is fine and visible.
As soon as you drop it a fade is applied, and the transient killed.

the issue starts way before consolidation, it is a bug in the definition of a 'default fade'. The applied fade, when 'no-fade' is set ought to be an immediate transition from no sound to some-sound. It is not.
The 'no fade' setting or 'reset fade' is in fact still applying a fade to all audio clips as they are initially instanced. All the issues with consolidation of a wave and warping modes merely trace back to that initial bug.

It shouldn't be too hard for them to fix, it's just been overlooked.

Angstrom
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Angstrom » Sun May 24, 2009 2:47 pm

3dot... wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Bug topic created, with images

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=115891

BTW - yes it happens on PC too.
why are you posting it in beta bugs ?
I posted it in Beta bugs
firstly because there's a chance that they are still closing up issues there and still paying attention to it more that Bugs & Problems.
Secondly out of habit
Thirdly, because as soon as there is a beta for L8.04 all current bugs will be posted there and so it will become current

djsynchro
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by djsynchro » Sun May 24, 2009 5:09 pm

word i just posted 2 bugs there too

Tone Deft
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Tone Deft » Sun May 24, 2009 5:30 pm

interesting topic. worth trying in Live 7?
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

Jekblad
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Jekblad » Mon May 25, 2009 2:43 am

just a bumpy shmumpy
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent

b_kollectiv
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by b_kollectiv » Mon May 25, 2009 4:20 am

IM really not an expert on this transient and warp stuff, but my question is:

im mixing tracks so i need to warp them , and the kick sound is awful, some tunes sound like if they were damaged

so pls someone post a general topic for fixing this thanks

3dot...
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by 3dot... » Mon May 25, 2009 6:22 am

Angstrom wrote:
3dot... wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Bug topic created, with images

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=115891

BTW - yes it happens on PC too.
why are you posting it in beta bugs ?
I posted it in Beta bugs
firstly because there's a chance that they are still closing up issues there and still paying attention to it more that Bugs & Problems.
Secondly out of habit
Thirdly, because as soon as there is a beta for L8.04 all current bugs will be posted there and so it will become current
for me... I don't get fades automatically... the transient is good when I drop the clip in...
only after render it becomes faded...
could be that the core of this is the fades implementation..(probably)
but it sounds like a different bug altogeher to me...
sorry about the grouching...I was being a bit of a jerk,,, :mrgreen:
Image

snakedogman
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by snakedogman » Mon May 25, 2009 9:11 am

b_kollectiv wrote:IM really not an expert on this transient and warp stuff, but my question is:

im mixing tracks so i need to warp them , and the kick sound is awful, some tunes sound like if they were damaged

so pls someone post a general topic for fixing this thanks
this is not really relevant to the topic of this thread at all, but it sounds like you are using a wrong warping mode. Try Repitch for best results, or Complex if you need to keep the pitch. Complex will kind of soften your sound though. I don't have live 8 so I don't know how Complex Pro fares in this department.

koalaboy
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by koalaboy » Mon May 25, 2009 9:32 am

In 8.0.1 under vista64, it works completely as expected for me. Turn fades off, no fades in either the clip, consolidated, or rendered audio.

:?

Swordfish
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Swordfish » Mon May 25, 2009 12:02 pm

bump

this sucks...turns drums to mush

Went back to live 7 today - it doesn't have this issue. And it seems to run heaps faster....

TITBAG
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by TITBAG » Mon May 25, 2009 12:40 pm

8 IS SLOWER HAS MORE LATENCY AND MAKES ALL YOUR DRUMS SOUND MUDDY

Amaury
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Amaury » Mon May 25, 2009 12:47 pm

Hi,

I think there was a bit of confusion, and I answered the thread posted by Angstrom about that.

Concerning the bug reported here: I can confirm and I did file it, it will be worked on.

The bug is that there is a fade printed at the beginning of a consolidated or rendered file. Note that there is only one fade created, at the very beginning of the first file, so, if you duplicate your kick drum, select the two clips, and consolidate, only the first one is affected. Same for rendering. I'm mentioning this so that you know that it's not ALL of your clips that are faded, when rendering a song, for example.

I repeat this: there is no a fade applied to all of your clips, only one at the very beginning of a rendered file, or at the beginning of the first clip of a group of clips that is consolidated.

Of course, if there were some user fades, for which ever reason, these would be printed on rendering or consolidation. That is to be expected. The above mentioned bug concerns clips that don't use any user fade.

Kind regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

Angstrom
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Angstrom » Mon May 25, 2009 1:09 pm

yes, I got confused somewhere.sorry about that
today all my clips drag in without fades!
I'll lay off the crack-pipe

zeepster
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by zeepster » Mon May 25, 2009 1:57 pm

In normal playback i notice a fade bug too. It's only audible on the first wav when playback starts.

Added to angstrom's fade bug thread:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=115891

Amaury
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Re: Is Ableton Killing your Transients? It's killing mine...

Post by Amaury » Mon May 25, 2009 4:15 pm

peez wrote:In normal playback i notice a fade bug too. It's only audible on the first wav when playback starts.

Added to angstrom's fade bug thread:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=115891
Hi,

I'll answer here, and not in the other thread. The other thread is now obsolete since the original issue is clarified, and we keep to keep one issue per thread in that section of the forum.

Here is the fact: when playback starts, an "emergency" fade is performed. Your observation is right. If it were not the case though, you'd hear a loud "pop", most of the times, when starting the playback, because the playback can start from anywhere.

It is a "trade off", and should affect playback only, of course. But again, if there would be no emergency fade, in most case you'd gain the attack of one of your sounds, and the "plop" from the bad cutting of other sounds.

This is not new to Live 8, and so far, it seems it's a better trade off than the opposite. This emergency fade was broken some time during the Live 8 beta, and we got many complains that some loud "plop" was heard at playback started.

Regards,
Amaury
Ableton Product Team

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