WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:55 pm

Tone Deft wrote:did not.
that was a correction you made after I first denounced the idea that a single RMS value is enough to measure the dynamic range.
no, it was not a correction , it was the second post I made in this thread. The first one simply stated that most of my tracks average at around -15db.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=915737#p915737
what is this even about? we're arguing about the arguing. you're just protecting your ego, you've pretty much already admitted to that.
No, I said that you were being insulting and willfully avoiding what people were saying. You used the 'appeal to authority' to tried to belittle any clarification and further misrepresented what was being said so as to maker it seem ludicrous.

your points were:

1: RMS is not intrinsically linked to decibels
2: RMS is not good as an indicator of peak, which is more important
3: RMS is not a noun and so you cannot say " the RMS of this song"


I kept saying.

1: yes, this is why all the variables here have 'db' on them. So we know what we are talking about.
2: we understand that RMS is not an indicator of peak, we are looking at the song decibel average below peak.
3: we can actually use RMS as a noun, because we can refer to the product of an average as "the average", IE the result.

Tone Deft
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:14 pm

no, my only point is that the OP might have maybe wanted to restate the original question because RMS can get sticky.

then you came in and called me a dick.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=915837#p915837

then you say I attacked you and I called you a n00b and go off on some personal vendetta about nothing.

I wrote that I didn't want to argue but you insisted, you literally insisted that we have a flame war!! I really don't care what point you're trying to make. there's nothing to learn here, you're not teaching me anything and we both know the topic at hand. this is LAAAAAAAME!!!

dude your ego is fucking ginormous. HUGE!!






























u n00b. :lol:
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Tone Deft
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:31 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:did not.
that was a correction you made after I first denounced the idea that a single RMS value is enough to measure the dynamic range.
no, it was not a correction , it was the second post I made in this thread. The first one simply stated that most of my tracks average at around -15db.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=915737#p915737
what is this even about? we're arguing about the arguing. you're just protecting your ego, you've pretty much already admitted to that.
No, I said that you were being insulting and willfully avoiding what people were saying. You used the 'appeal to authority' to tried to belittle any clarification and further misrepresented what was being said so as to maker it seem ludicrous.
well, once again you're the one making personal attacks.


all the rest of this is a discussion of the invented bullshit that you insist I engage you on, OK.
your points were:

1: RMS is not intrinsically linked to decibels
2: RMS is not good as an indicator of peak, which is more important
3: RMS is not a noun and so you cannot say " the RMS of this song"
nope, my only point was to maybe rephrase the question. but let's play your stupid game.
1 - yes. not linked to ANY unit of measure.
2 - yes and no, the OP and I discussed this and found pros and cons, it was a civil discourse, so maybe you missed that part.
3 - it's been established by many as being either.

I kept saying.

1: yes, this is why all the variables here have 'db' on them. So we know what we are talking about.
2: we understand that RMS is not an indicator of peak, we are looking at the song decibel average below peak.
3: we can actually use RMS as a noun, because we can refer to the product of an average as "the average", IE the result.
4: oooh oooh please argue with me, please please!!

1 - all? really? don't know, don't care. my only point was to be careful. now you're playing semantics.

2 - yes, and I stated early in the thread that even with my cautionary suggestion the point of the thread was conveyed perfectly well. I conceded the opposite of my argument pages ago.

3 - RMS can be either an adjective or a noun.

4 - lame.


really, all this tells me is that RMS is some new thing to you, this is not a big deal. there's nothing to learn here, you're just protecting your ego that was bruised because you thought I called you a n00b.



edit - how's this...?
I have been an impossible little prick about everything in this thread, completely dishonest, dodging every question, being completely rude and out of line with every single post. Angstrom was right about everything and I was wrong about everything. I apologize and promise to never ever do this again. I'm glad to see the error of my ways and I thank Angstrom for this growth opportunity, I will NEVER disagree with him on anything ever again.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

tw1nstates
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by tw1nstates » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:12 pm

mlehmann wrote:A very good freeware plugin to measure crest factor is Dynamic Range Meter from Pleasurize Music Foundation:

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/
Nice,

Thank you dude. . .
I slipped into a daze, whilst I was there I heard the most startling music, it was at once familiar and alien, reassuring and unsettling.
https://soundcloud.com/fearoftherave

Angstrom
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:57 pm

Tone Deft wrote:no, my only point is that the OP might have maybe wanted to restate the original question because RMS can get sticky. then you came in and called me a dick.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=915837#p915837
No, I did not leap in , I made a post about how I was obtaining my own values and you quoted that and replied directly to it, but as you also seemed to have misunderstood it.

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=915761#p915761

I obviously thought I had outlined my process and the values pretty clearly the first time, and as you were obviously talking specifically to me, but your post did not reflect what I had written. So I clarified again, and then again. Because I was repeatedly clarifying myself it was fair to assume that the post about "there is no RMS" was also directed at me and I responded belligerently at that point because it seemed your replies to me bore no relation to what I was saying.

You seem insistent that this is a flame war or ego contest, and cast me as a consistent egomaniac troll for continuing to post in this thread. But I am still looking to clarify the specific issues where you referenced my posts. I keep trying to clarify them because at no point have you acknowledged that I have addressed your misgivings. When I specifically address them you respond as if it were an attack on you, yet you have questioned me directly on these points - and that begs a reply.

Most of my posts were quite mildly written attempts to clarify what I was saying, or meaning, or doing - yet you take it as some sort of personal attack. It is not a personal attack, I am simply frustrated when you say that my honest attempts at clarification are some kind of duplicitous attempts to alter history. Or when you quote me out of context, such as saying "the RMS of the song" - while removing the bit where I explain what I mean by that RMS, IE : the specific result that came out of the calculation I just ran.

When I try to clarify the points you do not acknowledge them, you say they are alterations, or that I am playing semantics, and that I do not understand what I am talking about. Yet,my own understanding of what I was saying in my second post has still not changed.
It may be that there are better ways of getting an indication of global dynamic content than the RMS of the amplitudes, but I still think that RMS is an indication of dynamic content and also that it is possible, once a the set has been defined to refer to that result as "the RMS of the Song" (as opposed to the rms of some window around the cursor)

Once again, you will say I am playing arrogant egomaniacal semantics, but this is always what I meant, and said. I have not changed that at all.

Tone Deft
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:27 pm

first off, everyone knows that you're the fucking man, so whatever attacks I might whine about roll off my back. dude, you could rape my cat and I wouldn't care. I'm not offended or anything in the least, I'm just confused why we're doing this. where we're at now is at the tangled ends of constant interweb misunderstandings.


viewtopic.php?p=915761#p915761
yes, that was a wrong post. I was posting in the AM before I had even showered yet. I didn't get where you were coming from or why you'd go there. my every day experience with this is measuring voltages or audio levels (RMS nor not, but I know to be mindful of it every day), one time deals. averaging over a song caught me off guard. is that what kicked sand up your twat? how many pages ago was that?


is it a personal attack to tell people I attacked you? n00bs did read that, n00bs did give me shit for it, thanks for that. what about claiming that I called you a n00b when I did the opposite? pretty shitty thing to do.


all this crap for what? you know what RMS means and use it, I know what RMS means and use it, you know it, I know it, what's the point? I acknowledged your professional life and the experience that goes with it. I also said many many times that it doesn't matter and the point came across just fine. I also wrote many many times that it's really not a big deal and I'd rather not argue.

you're always chill, I've never seen you go off like this, which is very mild compared to most people going off. I'm not attacking you, I'm much shittier when I want to get under someone's skin.

enough with the nouns vs verbs, the contextual arguments and anyone ever writing RMS in this forum ever again?!?!?! we done with this or what?
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

Angstrom
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:42 pm

ok, that's fair enough.
it is getting pretty damn boring now.

lets play this thread out with it's own theme tune instead

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

note: it is not about averaging methods.

fishmonkey
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:46 pm

Tone Deft wrote:fishmonkey!! welcome to the flame war!!
fishmonkey wrote:actually i did read the thread, and i hear where you are coming from...

however, if you wanna play semantics (which is fair enough), then it's not unreasonable to expect to have your own semantics questioned...

according to your logic "length" must be an adjective in the statement "a length measurement" (it's not, it's always a noun)...

just because a word indicates a kind or class of something doesn't automatically make it an adjective...
:lol: actually it does. :lol:

what type of measurement? an RMS measurement.

kthxbye leave the flame war...
hey, hi!

sorry, i'll say this for the last time, but you're wrong on this particular point...

as mentioned, RMS is a basic mathematical technique... techniques are not adjectives...

here are some parallel examples: you can have a slow car, or a Dodge car, doesn't mean "Dodge" is an adjective does it? how bout a fast kick or a Taekwondo kick?

get it?

okthxbye

fishmonkey
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:47 pm

mlehmann wrote:A very good freeware plugin to measure crest factor is Dynamic Range Meter from Pleasurize Music Foundation:

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/
yeah, nice!

Tone Deft
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:50 pm

lol almost made it out...

INTERWEBS!!!!
Image

pinche gente...
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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fishmonkey
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:53 pm

haha, over and out...

x

Chang
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Chang » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:11 am

I think OP ask totally normal question. He even state what kind of music he makes "deep house etc". But I think he is asking about the crest factor not really RMS. In rock and pop the crest factor is around 14 - 20db when mixing. In the type of music op is talking about, the crest factor is usually smaller, like 6-10db. Everything more pumping and limited to death as opposed to rock song where crest factors can be very large and more natural dynamic. So I think op is really asking, in big deep house songs what do you normally see between average and Peak = whats your crest factor? And it is valid question because you can see/hear an improperly mixed song in his genre this way. If you have 909 house song with big sub bass and you have a crest factor of 36db, you are obviously doing something wrong and your attacks are out of control so i see why op asks question. You take kid that doesn't know what they are doing and put them on an SPL transient designer or sonnox transmod and you will see huge problems in crest factor right away.

Tone Deft
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:14 am

...
Last edited by Tone Deft on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

fishmonkey
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:20 am

why the aggro?

tw1nstates
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Re: WHAT RMS FOR YOUR TRACKS?

Post by tw1nstates » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:34 am

Wrr,

Actually Chang is right. I was really asking about crest factor, I was assuming that the RMS value (against a peak value of 0dbs or say -0.1 pr dBs) would be what everyone would measure from but as somepone pointed out not everyone is going to mix, pre master to around 0db.s I do i if master myself cos it's all digital, i am not boosting any frequencies with an eq as i will try to fix this in the mix.

So cerst factor is actually what i was asking about, I didn't realise at the time, thanks Tarekith and Chang for pointing that out.
And crest factor on it's own obviously is not helpful if your mix sounds like shit and is puming worse than a 14 y/olds justice rip off.

So lets assume that the theoretical tracks that one is comparing to sound good and are not over compressed.

Still, kinda back to sq 1 then as it's possible to check the crest factor of finished material but not of stuff pre mastering.

Anyone care to chip in, do you even look at this kind of stuff before you finish a track?
I slipped into a daze, whilst I was there I heard the most startling music, it was at once familiar and alien, reassuring and unsettling.
https://soundcloud.com/fearoftherave

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