Realtime MIDI smoothing/14 bit MIDI. Is it possible?

[ampman117]

Im hoping someone can shed some light on this...

I currently have a M-Audio Trigger Finger that I use to control parameters in Live 8. However, I can distinctly hear a "stepping" effect when playing live. For example, if I create a simple sawtooth patch in Analog, and then sweep the filter with the Trigger Finger, I can hear the filter cutoff stepping through values, rather than smoothly transitioning.

If I record the automation, then play it back, the filter sweep sounds smooth (Ableton adds smoothing AFTER it has been recorded), but when playing in real-time, I hear the stepping.

I *think* this is because the Trigger Finger is only sending standard 7 bit MIDI cc values, so there are only 127 "steps" to sweep through the entire 22kHz frequency range. This results in the stepping I am hearing -> 1kHz jumps to 1.5kHz, etc (just made those particular frequency values up).

My question is this: are there controllers that can send a higher resolution MIDI cc, by combining 2 values into a single 14 bit value (thereby giving much more than 127 steps), or some other midi magic? Alternately if there is a way to enable Live to smooth MIDI CC in realtime that would also be cool...I would like to be able to tweak parameters in realtime without hearing this stepping effect.

Also, I have already tried using -MidiEventThinning=0 and -ThinningAggressiveness=0 in the options.txt file. This did not appear to impact the realtime playback, just the resulting recorded automation.

[timothyallan]

BCR can send 14bit, it's the difference between night and day.

[ampman117]

Cool, thanks for the info I'll see if I can get the user manual off Behringers site...

I also found that the Novation Remote series (and possibly their other stuff too) allows you to configure the rotary encoders to respond in different ways, including a straight 0-127, endless increment/decrement (Rel1), velocity sensitive increment/decrement (Rel2), 14bit mode and a few others. These all (except the 0-127 mode) sound like methods of encoding parameter change information that would allow smooth transitions since they are based either on relative transitions, or use of a higher resolution.

Can anyone attest to the different Novation rotary encoder configurations? Do they work as good/better than a full 14 bit value in terms of allowing silky smooth parameter changes?

[timothyallan]

I also have the remote zero SL, and yes it can send 14bit silky smooth values. I'm a fan of 14bit

The only thing that shits me is that on the MK1 version, the endless rotaries are indented so you can still get skipping, but it's caused by the physical knob, not the midi output.

[audiovoid]

Finally I found a similar related topic to my problem.
This stepping (zipper-like) sound is coming from the controls on my vestax vcm 600 and I am flaberghasted. My 60 dollar x-session pro puts out perfectly smooth midi.
I posted a whole thread on it with audio examples here:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=149036

I too, would really like to know if there is some kind of option (maybe even a third party solution) for midi smoothing. It's subtle but god damn, its so annoying. And i'm sure that somebody with a trained ear would easily be able to hear this un-smooth stepping effect if ever played out on a Large Sound system.

[timothyallan]

I have the VCM 600 as well, and the exact same problem. There isn't a way of outputting 14 bit midi on the VCM600 which is awful considering how awesome the faders are.

The only reason I can see why Vestax would ruin the faders by allowing only 127 steps is because of cost cutting? Maybe the pickups needed for the higher sensitivity are more expensive?

[audiovoid]

I have the VCM 600 as well, and the exact same problem. There isn't a way of outputting 14 bit midi on the VCM600 which is awful considering how awesome the faders are.

The only reason I can see why Vestax would ruin the faders by allowing only 127 steps is because of cost cutting? Maybe the pickups needed for the higher sensitivity are more expensive?

Wow. Yea that is 'lame' ecspecially considering how expensive the unit is. Also I have about 10 other midi controllers and I have Never noticed this with any of them (with the exception of my Old Kawaii k5000 synth that I'm using as midi keyboard_the bank of knobs on it do the same Steppy thing).
So are u saying that most all other midi controllers Do infact send out 14bit messages then? Like, my x-session pro and uc-33 are sending out 14bit? How do you find out what bit a midi controller's controls are anyways? That info is Never listed in the tech specs (or not that I have seen anyways).
Thanks for the reply:)

[timothyallan]

Some manufacturers call it "Hi- res" midi, but it will be in the tech specs. The new traktor controllers have 14bit faders on them, BCR has 14bit knobs (or "normal" midi if you want), I think the Nocturne sends out 14bit, not sure about the UC33, doubt it.

You'll notice it more with long throw faders like the VCM, because each of the 127 steps takes up more 'physical' space so you can hear the stepping easier. If you have a short throw fader, you might not hear it as much as you'd be going from 1-127 in half the time if you push them at the same speed… make sense?

[audiovoid]

Some manufacturers call it "Hi- res" midi, but it will be in the tech specs. The new traktor controllers have 14bit faders on them, BCR has 14bit knobs (or "normal" midi if you want), I think the Nocturne sends out 14bit, not sure about the UC33, doubt it.

You'll notice it more with long throw faders like the VCM, because each of the 127 steps takes up more 'physical' space so you can hear the stepping easier. If you have a short throw fader, you might not hear it as much as you'd be going from 1-127 in half the time if you push them at the same speed… make sense?

ah. that Does make sense for the faders for sure. However, in my mind it dosn't make as much sense for the knobs/pots and the steppy (almost granulated) sound they are creating when tweaking a filter cuttoff. Ecspecially when the cheap (and almost same sized) knobs on the x-session pro are producing perfectly audibly smooth results. Still a little baffled.
If u listen to this audio example u can clearly hear the difference of me tweaking the cutoff on the same audio clip 1st with the vcm then after the short silence, with the x-sessio pro (which sounds perfectly smooth in comparison to me).
http://audiovoid.net/abe/vcm600_zipper_ ... _after.aif