Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
SubFunk
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by SubFunk » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:27 pm

Tone Deft wrote:on the contrary, all the improvements to your workflow far outweigh your complaints.

for example I record live instruments (bass, guitar etc) at 192kHz for low latency. then as the CPU load goes up I move to 96kHz. when I'm done recording stuff I move to 48kHz when I do stuff where latency doesn't matter.

all the stuff you're talking about it a moot point compared to the ease of workflow when changing sample rates. use the right rate for the job you need to get done.

what the F are you on about complaints again...??? dude chill out.

1st it is my business and i don't bother anymore complaining... (show me the last date of my complaints and shut up, cause it is over a week ago...)

and second and most important the OP asks if it is a good idea, not if it is possible or not and i expressed my opinion. period.
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stringtapper
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:27 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
leedsquietman wrote:you can't have different sample rates in the same project, as the speed/pitch will be affected and you won't get things in sync and some things will sound like alvin and the chipmunks version.

you need to get everything to one universal sample rate.
absolutely not true. I change sample rates in the same project all the time. try it.
Isn't this a feature that's unique to Live and is not true for most other DAWs?
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Tone Deft
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:29 pm

SubFunk wrote:^^^


DM 2000, d&b D12 poorly designed??? LOL :lol: you not have a clue do you?
if they can't detect AES sample rates, they're poorly designed in that aspect, that's clear.
as for the CPU thing, i know in theory your are right, but hey everyone to his own... use as many different sample rates as you want.
and normalise the shit out of your audio...
OK, I'm right. the normalization thing again? :roll: what don't you get about normalization?
i don't, because it prooved not to be a good outcome. neither with Peak, sonic HD, Live, Logic, PT or any audio prog i ever used.

and poorly designed hardware... LOL again.
grasping at straws...
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Tone Deft
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:30 pm

SubFunk wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:on the contrary, all the improvements to your workflow far outweigh your complaints.

for example I record live instruments (bass, guitar etc) at 192kHz for low latency. then as the CPU load goes up I move to 96kHz. when I'm done recording stuff I move to 48kHz when I do stuff where latency doesn't matter.

all the stuff you're talking about it a moot point compared to the ease of workflow when changing sample rates. use the right rate for the job you need to get done.

what the F are you on about complaints again...??? dude chill out.

1st it is my business and i don't bother anymore complaining... (show me the last date of my complaints and shut up, cause it is over a week ago...)

and second and most important the OP asks if it is a good idea, not if it is possible or not and i expressed my opinion. period.
me chill out, you're the one LOL-ing like a cocky little shit.

it's not worth worrying about. your example was some gear that acted strange when presented with different sample rates, as if everyone has that gear. awful advice, totally irrelevant.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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Tone Deft
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:32 pm

nms wrote:I've avoided using the high qual mode since I saw that it boosted 0db peaking audio to clip past 0db and seemed to add more high end so that alteration sketched me out a bit.
OK, that's worth discussing. can anyone confirm this?
the samples I'm using are bass tones though for my bassline.. so I have them laid out in a drum rack via simpler... so there is no high quality option.
nope. AFAIK the high quality setting in the preferences menu is global for all incoming SRC operations.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:34 pm

stringtapper wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
leedsquietman wrote:you can't have different sample rates in the same project, as the speed/pitch will be affected and you won't get things in sync and some things will sound like alvin and the chipmunks version.

you need to get everything to one universal sample rate.
absolutely not true. I change sample rates in the same project all the time. try it.
Isn't this a feature that's unique to Live and is not true for most other DAWs?
no clue, I've been a Live only user since version 3. I doubt it otherwise Ableton would totally brag about it.

I know that when designing filters and audio operations in DSPland it's much more efficient to SRC to a single sample rate because then you only have to design and code it up once. many DSP operations are sample rate specific.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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SubFunk
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by SubFunk » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:44 pm

What's your problem TD ?

i said it is possible, the OP asked if it is a good idea, i said not, because i believe the answer is no.

he can use whatever he wants and make his own experiences... you know, i do admit i am not much of a theory kinda guy, never learned that way or studied any maths or physics or electronics or such... all i know, if i speak about something is pure reality experience out of making my living in the audio realm, day for day for day...

so, ALL my opinion is not based on any book nor any theory and believe me i do know that the gap between theory and reality can be rather large, very large indeed. (that measurement i take from guys i have to work with just coming from a school, like SAE e.g. it's well... :roll: )

sincerely
axel
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leedsquietman
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by leedsquietman » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:54 pm

Cubase doesn't change different samplerates on the fly.

It puts up a dialogue box asking if you want to convert it to the same sample rate in the project setup if you put something different in. And if not, you get the Alvin and the Chipmunks effect.

As stated in the manual
"While most Project Setup settings can be changed at
any time, you must select a sample rate once and for
all when starting with a new project! All audio files
must be of this sample rate to play back correctly."

I'm pretty sure Protools and Logic are bound by this too.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:56 pm

Funk- just replying in kind.

leeds - I respect that you know your shit. why don't I get this chipmunk effect? I never pay attention to the sample rates of samples I import and I change my sound card's rate all the time. can you tell me a list of things to get this effect?
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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SubFunk
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by SubFunk » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:58 pm

@ leeds

yes they are.

(unless PT changed it in the newest version... did not used it anymore after 6)
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nms
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by nms » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:00 pm

I guess the debate here is between stuff most of us have heard we shouldn't do, vs whether or not in reality with Live it even makes any difference and there are any quality gains from diff methods.
For me ultimately I'll do whatever I have to with prep work to get better quality and noticable cpu savings. But I don't want to jump thru hoops for nothing. If it's beneficial to work all in the same sample rate, then for that to make any sense it seems you must be aligning it to an overall project sample rate.. but live doesn't have the option to set sample rate for your project. There is only in the preferences/audio tab/sample rate: in/out sample rate. but that's just for in/out.. plus it's forced to 48000 and not changeable for me.

@leeds: we are not talking about other software or hardware though in this discussion. also.. cubase is the devil! haha.
Last edited by nms on Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

leedsquietman
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by leedsquietman » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:01 pm

What gear do you use Tone ? (or have used to draw on your experiences)

I know in the case of Live, that it handles SRC and bit depth on the fly, which is obviously different from Cubase and some other DAWS and equipment.

If you're talking hardware gear beyond Live, or other DAWS then please share because my experience has been detailed already which differs from yours.
I am sure your experience is as you describe - so maybe we can all educate each other here and share the info :)
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Tone Deft » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:07 pm

sound cards, these days an Ediorl UA101 sound card.

I'm looking at this as Live using SRCs at its input and output in all cases. where can the disconnect be? (that's not a smart ass question.)
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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leedsquietman
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by leedsquietman » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:17 pm

OK.

Without wanting to open more cans labelled 'worms', I am curious how much help you find with the latency issues of using higher samplerates in your experience and how you work with the trade off of increased CPU usage.

I've heard quite a few others also basically repeat what you said earlier and I don't have enough experience of doing this to form a valid opinion. I mostly work with 24/44.1 with the occasional 32 bit float/96 Khz or 24/96 or 24/88.2 these are mostly files I work with for 'mix finalizing/mastering' for 3rd parties.
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Robert Henke
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Re: Using diff sample rates in same project... not a good idea?

Post by Robert Henke » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:18 pm

If the file is not warped, not transposed, and has the same sample rate as the soundcard, the SRC is bypassed, and every sample from the file is carried from the file to the track by crafted micro slaves without alteration.

If the SRC is a bad idea or not depends on your point of view: If you can hear the difference, avoid it. If not, enjoy the benefit of it being there. For us it was important to allow the usage of mono or stereo files with 24 bit or 16 bit or 32bit with 44.1k or 48k or 96k etc. without the need to convert anything. PT cannot even deal with 24 bit versus 16 bit files in one session ( I am not sure if this is still the case, but it was true for a long period of time...).

The reason why the hi-quality SRC can slightly go over 0.0dB is in the nature of the interpolation. But seriously, who cares????? SRCs need to create sample where no sample was before. If this leads to a sample with the value of 1.0000000000000001 at some point, and this is the best possible interpolation value to get a smooth curve, why bother? The fact that the clipping LED lights up is what confuses you, not the sound. And in any real world situation you would alter the gain, apply EQ etc. anyway.

Every waveform that is no a sinewave which started an infinite time ago and ends an infinite time later can be seen as a sinewave with distortion. Every speaker adds distortion, every microphone, your ears. etc. In comparison the distortion added by the SRC is in my personal opinion not at all significant.

If you hear the difference between the real time SRC in Live and another algorithm, and you like the other more, use the other one.

To test the influence of the SRC, i'd suggest you record a file in 96k.
Then you play it back with 96k, and re-record it with 44.1k and with 48k using analog I/O of the best soundcard you can get. Then make a blind test with Live running at 44.1k and running at 48k. Invite friends with golden ears and use the best speakers/headphones you can get. Afterwards you have a basis to decide about it.


Robert

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