How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
Re: How Instant is your search function?
I wonder, would it be possible for Live to hook into the operating system's search index? I just did a search for an Ableton Live preset using the Vista search and it came up instantly. A similar search in Live would take quite a while. But I know it wouldn't be easy, considering the different OSes do it differently, and something like XP doesn't have it if I recall correctly.
Re: How Instant is your search function?
For me runs as described, but I have a standard library (no addition of mine except some preset I made)
- Best
- Pasha
- Best
- Pasha
Mac Studio M1
Live 12 Suite,Zebra ,Valhalla Plugins, MIDI Guitar (2+3),Guitar, Bass, VG99, GP10, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha
Live 12 Suite,Zebra ,Valhalla Plugins, MIDI Guitar (2+3),Guitar, Bass, VG99, GP10, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha
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concept_control
- Posts: 85
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Re: How Instant is your search function?
Failing that, just more favourite locations would be handy... got one for samples, one for tunes, and one for project files, I could do with a few more to play about with.
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ThomasHelzle
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:48 pm
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Re: How Instant is your search function?
After an initial search that took a very long time (over an hour) for the samplification files (started from the help page) and deactivating automatic rescan on each search, I now have a pretty fast search (not instant but maybe 10-20 seconds for a given term) but I still don't know if I wil ever use it, since entering "reverb" for instance comes up with hundreds of files of all kinds in a flat list.
Now it's possible that they all use reverb in some way, but I guess I'm still faster going through the tree instead of dealing with this kind of "result".
I'll have another look at the docs if they contain some more insight, but so far I would give the search in Live the rating: pretty much useless for normal work.
Now there is a huge potential for improvement!
Cheers,
Thomas
Now it's possible that they all use reverb in some way, but I guess I'm still faster going through the tree instead of dealing with this kind of "result".
I'll have another look at the docs if they contain some more insight, but so far I would give the search in Live the rating: pretty much useless for normal work.
Now there is a huge potential for improvement!
Cheers,
Thomas
Re: How Instant is your search function?
thomas,
you can order your seach results so live devices appear first. so type "rev" and reverb pops up. Hit the down key to select the reverb and enter to load it onto the track. OR once the reverb is selected hit the right arrow key and it'll give you your "tree" of the reverb folder so you can get you any presets you've saved for reverb.
this starts to work even better when you customize your library. I've made a bunch of operator patches for the different wave forms and put them in a folder named "jOp"
i search for "jOp" and all my presets show up. From there i can choose my wave type so i don't have to reprogram it every time.
15-20 seconds is still too long. Mine takes a half of a second.
you can order your seach results so live devices appear first. so type "rev" and reverb pops up. Hit the down key to select the reverb and enter to load it onto the track. OR once the reverb is selected hit the right arrow key and it'll give you your "tree" of the reverb folder so you can get you any presets you've saved for reverb.
this starts to work even better when you customize your library. I've made a bunch of operator patches for the different wave forms and put them in a folder named "jOp"
i search for "jOp" and all my presets show up. From there i can choose my wave type so i don't have to reprogram it every time.
15-20 seconds is still too long. Mine takes a half of a second.
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent
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ThomasHelzle
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:48 pm
- Contact:
Re: How Instant is your search function?
Jekblad: thanks for your reply.
I just tried it, but I think it is still too tedious for my day to day needs. The right-arrow is helpful, but still I would be faster going through the tree directly, since I already know where the things are I use often (like my own presets).
And I personally don't find the flat list appealing as a tool to find things I don't know yet, since they are out of context and don't show a description. The sort only helps me marginally I fear.
My main job is doing 3D graphics and animation (http://www.screendream.de) and my main tool there is Softimage XSI.
In the last version they came up with a visual node based editor for particles and deformation called ICE.
Since there are a lot of nodes in lots of categories, they implemented a search that is perfect for my needs:
1.) Search input field is always there.
2.) Search is instant as you type, so you can see directly how many items you get from your search term so far and stop typing as soon as you found what you need (the same as it works in Opera, AfterEffects or Spotlight) or modify your search.
3.) The results are categorized, so while it is an almost flat list, you have section headings marking your results for an instant overview of what "folders" your results are from.
This is a search I use all the time - I hardly ever browse through the tree.
Now Live is a different beast since the library contains many different things, not just nodes and node compounds (~racks) as in my example above in XSI - and much more of them.
Therefore I would need more easy to access qualifiers, like tickmarks below the search field to select: effects - instruments - effect racks - instrument racks - drum racks - samples - midi etc.
I finally read the help about the search function and it seems it already does what I asked for in my earlier post
For testing purposes, I turned on the automatic rescan preference again and to my surprise, it still is pretty fast.
So I guess, that this is the first time I let it build a full index instead of stopping after some minutes without results, which is why I never saw the search at it's real speed...
To make this more digestible to the user in future versions, I guess it would be a good idea to have a window come up when doing a search the first time saying: "Ableton Live is doing an initial library scan, building your index. This may take a while but can run in the background and only has to be done once".
Or something like that?
Cheers,
Thomas Helzle
I just tried it, but I think it is still too tedious for my day to day needs. The right-arrow is helpful, but still I would be faster going through the tree directly, since I already know where the things are I use often (like my own presets).
And I personally don't find the flat list appealing as a tool to find things I don't know yet, since they are out of context and don't show a description. The sort only helps me marginally I fear.
My main job is doing 3D graphics and animation (http://www.screendream.de) and my main tool there is Softimage XSI.
In the last version they came up with a visual node based editor for particles and deformation called ICE.
Since there are a lot of nodes in lots of categories, they implemented a search that is perfect for my needs:
1.) Search input field is always there.
2.) Search is instant as you type, so you can see directly how many items you get from your search term so far and stop typing as soon as you found what you need (the same as it works in Opera, AfterEffects or Spotlight) or modify your search.
3.) The results are categorized, so while it is an almost flat list, you have section headings marking your results for an instant overview of what "folders" your results are from.
This is a search I use all the time - I hardly ever browse through the tree.
Now Live is a different beast since the library contains many different things, not just nodes and node compounds (~racks) as in my example above in XSI - and much more of them.
Therefore I would need more easy to access qualifiers, like tickmarks below the search field to select: effects - instruments - effect racks - instrument racks - drum racks - samples - midi etc.
I finally read the help about the search function and it seems it already does what I asked for in my earlier post
For testing purposes, I turned on the automatic rescan preference again and to my surprise, it still is pretty fast.
So I guess, that this is the first time I let it build a full index instead of stopping after some minutes without results, which is why I never saw the search at it's real speed...
To make this more digestible to the user in future versions, I guess it would be a good idea to have a window come up when doing a search the first time saying: "Ableton Live is doing an initial library scan, building your index. This may take a while but can run in the background and only has to be done once".
Or something like that?
Cheers,
Thomas Helzle
Re: How Instant is your search function?
Thanks to responders and Jekblad in particular. After some inital false starts which were most likely liveware problems I have a search function that I think I'll grow to rely on.
I'm under the impresssion that during a search, with automatic rescan turned on, Live build an index of everything no matter what you enter into the search field. To get the impressively near instant search results turn off automatic rescan but only after you've seen one search out to its fullest conclusion with all your external drives turned on. I became impatient at one point and cancelled a search because I wanted to work, this seemed to create a partial index which was useless (entering 'delay' yielded zero results
) so the index used will only be as complete as the last search performed with rescan turned on. Be aware this may take some time if your running a lot of external drives but it will most likely be worth it.
I'm under the impresssion that during a search, with automatic rescan turned on, Live build an index of everything no matter what you enter into the search field. To get the impressively near instant search results turn off automatic rescan but only after you've seen one search out to its fullest conclusion with all your external drives turned on. I became impatient at one point and cancelled a search because I wanted to work, this seemed to create a partial index which was useless (entering 'delay' yielded zero results
) so the index used will only be as complete as the last search performed with rescan turned on. Be aware this may take some time if your running a lot of external drives but it will most likely be worth it.
Last edited by ikeaboy on Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
ikea thank you for confirming that i'm not crazy, and your observations on the index. Once you turn of "auto rescan" you should be able to cancel searches at will as long as an index has been built previously.
Thomas i totally agree there are better search functions out there. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE upgrades to the browser, especially several live browser with bookmarks like the file browsers we already have. I have hot keys assigned through iKey (windows look at auto hot key) for me to pull up each browser. This way my search is completely keyboard based. There are times where i want to leave one search open and run a different one etc etc.
The flat list is hard to deal with. In my mind i'm only interested in the first 3 results (live devices), or i'm searching for a custom set of patches i've built.
Another way to look at it is the search takes you where you want to go. Let's imagine i want to load a patch by the Covert Operators, but i can't remember the name or where it's placed. However, i do remember one name of a covops patch that i've used before called "Danish Delight". A search show's me the preset, i highlight it with a down stroke, and then press the left arrow key. This EXITS search mode and returns the tree to the position of the currently selected file. So now I'm in the folder that contains my Covops patches and i can browse them in the tree.
I've found this method to be more reliable, quick, and enjoyable than mousing around through every folder.
It is re-training yourself which is never easy, but i think you gain speed and lose wrist problems from using the mouse too much. At least that's what i tell myself.
Thomas i totally agree there are better search functions out there. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE upgrades to the browser, especially several live browser with bookmarks like the file browsers we already have. I have hot keys assigned through iKey (windows look at auto hot key) for me to pull up each browser. This way my search is completely keyboard based. There are times where i want to leave one search open and run a different one etc etc.
The flat list is hard to deal with. In my mind i'm only interested in the first 3 results (live devices), or i'm searching for a custom set of patches i've built.
Another way to look at it is the search takes you where you want to go. Let's imagine i want to load a patch by the Covert Operators, but i can't remember the name or where it's placed. However, i do remember one name of a covops patch that i've used before called "Danish Delight". A search show's me the preset, i highlight it with a down stroke, and then press the left arrow key. This EXITS search mode and returns the tree to the position of the currently selected file. So now I'm in the folder that contains my Covops patches and i can browse them in the tree.
I've found this method to be more reliable, quick, and enjoyable than mousing around through every folder.
It is re-training yourself which is never easy, but i think you gain speed and lose wrist problems from using the mouse too much. At least that's what i tell myself.
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent
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MathematiK I
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:42 pm
- Location: Under Survailance
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
well...fix this... when I write 'delay' in the search engine...
I get every device/rack that has a delay in it...
in case you were wondering... that's NOT a good thing...
I get every device/rack that has a delay in it...
in case you were wondering... that's NOT a good thing...
the artist formerly known as 3dot...
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
would it be more useful if your live devices came up first, so you could choose between grain delay, ping pong etc?
In the browser:
Right click on the word "name", in the context menu make sure you have "type" selected. You'll now see the word "type" in the bar with "name". Clicking type allows you to sort the list by type, bringing the live devices to the top of the search field.
In the browser:
Right click on the word "name", in the context menu make sure you have "type" selected. You'll now see the word "type" in the bar with "name". Clicking type allows you to sort the list by type, bringing the live devices to the top of the search field.
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent
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ThomasHelzle
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:48 pm
- Contact:
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
Thanks again Jekblad
Yeah, looking for something you can't exactly remember where it was is a good example, but with the current search-toolset I doubt I will use it as much as you do.
If the search would be live-as-you-type and the tree would become (as one option) fully expanded with only the branches left that contain things fitting your search and a comment-column made available, it would be a completely different matter
As far as my wrist goes - a wacom takes care of that and it was my main reason to update to live 8 to be able to finally put my mouse to rest
Thanks - I really learned something new here!
Cheers,
Thomas
Yeah, looking for something you can't exactly remember where it was is a good example, but with the current search-toolset I doubt I will use it as much as you do.
If the search would be live-as-you-type and the tree would become (as one option) fully expanded with only the branches left that contain things fitting your search and a comment-column made available, it would be a completely different matter
As far as my wrist goes - a wacom takes care of that and it was my main reason to update to live 8 to be able to finally put my mouse to rest
Thanks - I really learned something new here!
Cheers,
Thomas
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MathematiK I
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:42 pm
- Location: Under Survailance
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
no... the devices come up first which is cool...Jekblad wrote:would it be more useful if your live devices came up first, so you could choose between grain delay, ping pong etc?
In the browser:
Right click on the word "name", in the context menu make sure you have "type" selected. You'll now see the word "type" in the bar with "name". Clicking type allows you to sort the list by type, bringing the live devices to the top of the search field.
...but devices are top level anyways
many many racks contain some sort of delay device
(5 delay devices in live's arsenal..)
I'd rather it'll give me *anything* that contains 'delay' in the preset name...
..or in it's info view notes ...
it's no use for me if I have to press the 'date' tab...
and try to remember when I saved it...
but fortunately there is a workaround...
which is kinda neat actually.
and I'm sure many do this already but:
if you use your own weird 'naming convention'...
where you state the main purpose of the preset and then it's name.
(this one also makes your presets appear before Live's in the browser...)
some examples to preset names:
"!DELAY!FILTER!RubsNDubs1"
"!FILTER!assBlaster2k"
so this way...
if you search through anything and use '!' as a prefix...('!delay')
you'll be able to search by preset name or by the function of the device...
and not get EVERY single rack in the live lib as a search result.
filter the library out...
the whole of Live's Library can be pretty overwhelming.
there's A LOT of content.
if you find a preset that you like in the live library ...
you can always re-save with your own naming ...
the original preset will stay unharmed(naturally)
THANKS THOUGH JEKBLAD !!!
the artist formerly known as 3dot...
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
Right on dude. That's where it's at. most of my presets get saved with a "j" in front of them.
i've started to move towards folders though and just searching a folder to see all the type of presets i've saved in there. If i need to save something out side that folder, i'll put the name of that folder in the preset name or metadata
i've started to move towards folders though and just searching a folder to see all the type of presets i've saved in there. If i need to save something out side that folder, i'll put the name of that folder in the preset name or metadata
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
Never used the search before... but this topic was intriguing.
So...
Did several searches - eg. Delay, Verb, , Pad.
Initially it took a looong time (scanning whole library).. cannot say exact time, as I did some chores outside.
But after those searches (or Rescans), searching is near instantaneous.
With Rescan of library complete (with Jekbland's advice, I will do regularly, ie after livepack installs, etc), I have turned off Rescan.
Turned Off Rescan : Preferences->File/Folder - Browser behavior, Rescan Off.
Searching is still near instantaneous.
Thanxs for the advice in this thread, has helped to make another feature of Live useful for me.
So...
Did several searches - eg. Delay, Verb, , Pad.
Initially it took a looong time (scanning whole library).. cannot say exact time, as I did some chores outside.
But after those searches (or Rescans), searching is near instantaneous.
With Rescan of library complete (with Jekbland's advice, I will do regularly, ie after livepack installs, etc), I have turned off Rescan.
Turned Off Rescan : Preferences->File/Folder - Browser behavior, Rescan Off.
Searching is still near instantaneous.
Thanxs for the advice in this thread, has helped to make another feature of Live useful for me.
2.8ghz Quad Mac, Live 9.77, Remote25, Maschine 1, Fa-66 optical link, Samson 65a. Dog hair.. lots.
Re: How Instant is your search function? + How to fix it
Hey all,
Very interested in this. I'm realizing this last year that majority of my free time is searching through samples. Production shouldn't be like that. Couple of questions if I may:
Win Explorer search is not quite good enough. I try to focus just on all file names (samples) that contain the text " _C " (including the actual spaces) and its hopeless. Very exhausting. Can Ableton's browser search take actual spaces in account for its search criteria?.
If I RIGHT CLICK & choose the "Search in folder" option (which in my case will be 70Gb of samples within a "Samples directory") will this suffice as an INDEX search?
I'm testing the Ableton 9 Demo here and don't see the "Search in folder" option on right click. Seems there has been some changes made to the browser. Anyone know there way around it yet?
Much thanks
p.s. Started to search WORKSPACE (which is 3 HDs 80GB, 250GB & 1TB but maybe only 500 GB used in total. Been searching just for ".wavs" and its been 5hours. Could this be an overnight thing? How long was yours?
Very interested in this. I'm realizing this last year that majority of my free time is searching through samples. Production shouldn't be like that. Couple of questions if I may:
Win Explorer search is not quite good enough. I try to focus just on all file names (samples) that contain the text " _C " (including the actual spaces) and its hopeless. Very exhausting. Can Ableton's browser search take actual spaces in account for its search criteria?.
If I RIGHT CLICK & choose the "Search in folder" option (which in my case will be 70Gb of samples within a "Samples directory") will this suffice as an INDEX search?
I'm testing the Ableton 9 Demo here and don't see the "Search in folder" option on right click. Seems there has been some changes made to the browser. Anyone know there way around it yet?
Much thanks
p.s. Started to search WORKSPACE (which is 3 HDs 80GB, 250GB & 1TB but maybe only 500 GB used in total. Been searching just for ".wavs" and its been 5hours. Could this be an overnight thing? How long was yours?